I never said that they aren’t technically proletariat but their are factors to consider when it comes to their relation to production and systems of extraction and oppression…
Were the american pioneers who genocided the native Americans also proletarians… what about white workers in apartheid south Africa… heck what about German workers during the Nazi regime… here’s the thing… yeah they do count as part of the proletariat but that doesn’t change their involvement and support for oppression and genocide and for fucks sake, how are you calling zionist settlers who literally disposess and steal land, thereby owning land, and then on top those in Israeli territory who employ Palestinians from the west bank for a slave wage, how do you call them proletarian in any meaningful fucking way…
A German nazi household who rented a jew from a force labour camp as a house maid (as they historically fucking did) was still a household where the father went and sold his labour… doesn’t change the fact that they essentially engaged in fucking slavery… proletariat isn’t a moral category… that’s right.
But to lump everybody into the category of proletarian equally while ignoring these major fucking issues of oppression that defineltly show that these people engage or at least benefit from labour extractive practices the same or at least similar way that the bourgeois do… that’s just fucking stupid…
And it doesn’t change the fact that the alignment with the spirit of the proletariat is more relevant than the mere fact of selling one’s labor… if you work for and benefit from bourgeois interests, even if just indirectly through colonial extraction done by your government or the cooperation that you sell your labour too, that still makes you very much morally complicit to some degrees… same is true for European proletarians who benefit from the first world extracting resources from the third world… but It’s an issue of degree… and if you literally employ slaves, use force labour, support apartheid or engage in genocide against indigenous populations or are a Fascist, then I think the fact that you are literally working to defend the interest of capital in the most aggressive way possible takes precedent over the fact that you also sell your labour…
When the soviets fought the nazi germans, they weren’t lamenting the fact that they were killing other working class people, they were thinking about the fact that they are fighting fascists…
And the same is true for apartheid, occupation, colonialism, imperialism and genocide…
I’m not gonna say “oh look at the poor American or Israeli soilder whos gleefully killing children… he’s also selling his labour, he’s one of us” because that’s fucking retarded… I’m gonna be thinking and saying “that person is a fascists working for empire in the interest of capital”… because that is the honest answer about their relation to capital
Of course again morally it’s a issue of degree and difference. An American adult isn’t the same as a child. A civilian not the same as a soilder, a worker not the same as capitalist but that doesn’t change the fact that they all benefit from the imperialist and fascist system they live under and they also largely support
What. They’re inventing whole new levels of idealism with this one. When the proletariat does something bad they’re still very much proletarian lmao, again its not a moral caragory even if that upsets you. Do you actually like, understand Marxist class analysis?
a) maybe my language was a bit flowery… what I meant by spirit of the proletariat, I don’t even remember writing it like that, was aligning with the interests of the international proletariat… and if they act against the interest of the international proletariat that doesn’t make them not proletarian but it makes them an enemy of the cause because they are literally fighting on behalf of capital.
These are obviously bourgeois? just as there is Palestinians bourgeoisie as well? Neither country is entirely one single class are you retardrd
b) Israeli is not a country, its an imperialist outpost for the American empire and a colonial settler ethno-state… yes there are Palestinian bourgeois but that doesn’t change the fact that they still suffer from colonization and occupation… also I never said that each group is one class, all I said was that they have different relationship to capital from a perspective of colonization and labou extraction…
c) You say they are obviously bourgeois but again if you look at the German example of the working household with a Jewish maid from a force labour camp, they are obviously also still working class because they are still selling their labour at one point or another…
The soviets were a capitalist state by the time of ww2
d) that’s an issue of history… I was talking about the principle… somebody fighting against a Fascist State employing working class men as soilders isn’t gonna think and shouldnt think about the fact that they are working class men foremost but rather about the fact that they are fighting against a Fascist state… death and war is always a tragedy nonetheless but don’t pretend these two working class men are standing on equal footing if one of them is a Fascist from conviction and the other is not…
As much as I loathe them they are “one of us” in that I share a class with them, class isn’t a moral category… stop thinking of it as a moral category
e) it isn’t about morality… it’s about in what interest you are employing your labour… if you’re selling your labour to defend capital then you are still complicit in capitalist oppression… a police officer or soilder is still selling their labour but that doesn’t change the fact that they are acting on behalf of capital and thereby are an enemy to the proletarian cause and should be treated as such as long as they stat complicit in capitalist violence against the working class, because when the working class acts against their own interests, there are different levels of approaching it, one would be education and recruitment and even support, but the moment we reach people who are literally killing for empire and capital en mass, then giving them a book or leaflet is not gonna work and they need to be treated as what they are: fascists…
Thats also not rlly what oop said she literally called for the ethnic cleansing of all those not tied to the land by blood lmao
I didn’t see Ababail taking about that and even if he did, it is reasonable to expect a lot of reparations and that at one point certain people would need to leave… if you’re family lived there for two/three generations as an Israeli then yes your grandpa and father and maybe even you were participating in oppression against Palestinians… but you should be treated differently than somebody who’s an American jew who’s been living there for 5 years or came with the expressed purpose of fighting for the IDF… the issue or complicity is sadly so far reaching in Israel that an approach such as in South Africa would probably fail and even an approach such as in nazi Germany has been shown to not have been fully effective considering the state of Germany today… so the question of how to resolve this issue is very complicated… neither simply kicking out every Israeli is gonna work nor simply ignoring everything that has happened is gonna work… and the same is true, though very reasonably so tona lesser degree, for the Palestinian side of the issue…
Even the proletariat who do morally bad things align with the interests of the international proletariat that’s how class works
What? Like genuinely… that’s stupid… you can be working class and still work against your own class interests… like if you’re a Mexican American man who’s working two jobs but you still vote for Trump… aren’t you literally working against your own interests??? Like ofc that’s possible. Belonging to the proletariat doesn’t magically give you class consciousness.
No country is a “real country” the entire concept of a national community is bourgeois fiction.
Very fair point. Nationalism is dumb. I wanted to just point out the illegitimate nature of the existence of the zionist state…
Class isn’t defined by the number row good/bad thigns you do its defined by your relationship with the mode of production… why is this confusing to you
Why is it confusing to you that an Israeli worker or settler has a very different relationship to empire and capital even if his relationship to the mode of production on paper is similar or the same as that of a a Palestinian worker and that an Israeli worker being a zionist means he’s working against the interests of the working class and participating in colonial oppression.
Like why don’t you get it that it’s more complicated than “selling labour or owning capital” because our understanding of Marxism shouldn’t end with Marx, that’s why people like Lenin and Mao expanded on these issues and explained them further… colonial dimensions, gender, and a lot more intersections aspects matter in class analysis… of course they do…
So it should be obvious that an Israeli worker is complicit in the oppression of Palestinians by literally stealing and occupying land even if he technically still sells his labour… his relationship to capital and empire is different in a way that is very much relevant for analysis.
Thats how i think about all people… im a marxist.
Fair point. That was a little harshly worded on my end by I still think my point matters.
You can be proletarian and have interests alligned with the proletariat and do bad things
That’s not what I’m saying… you can be proletarian and still hit a cat… what I’m saying is that their interests Don’t align with the working class fully or regardless of particular differences… and often times they are fully working against the interests of the working class… because they are influenced by systems of oppression that they benefit from and therefore shape their interests… And influenced by bourgeois propaganda, in this case specifically fascist and ethno-nationalist propaganda and zionism…
You can be a worker and yes even though negotiating for a better wage with your capitalist boss is you fighting for the interest of your class, that doesn’t change the fact that there are intersectional differences… a black worker under apartheid and a white worker benefiting from apartheid are both workers…
And yet the white worker is one the one hand figting for his working class interests but limits that fight to his own race because he still benefits from apartheid oppression, socially and financially… making him complicit in bourgeois oppression because racism is defended ideologically but conducted economically… same for gender and other forms of oppression… and as long as that white worker doesn’t turn against these systems of oppression as well, he is complicit to some degree in bourgeois oppression and partly benefiting from it…
And if you take this to the extreme we end up with proletarian settlers who yes are proletariat but need to be held accountable to the fact that they are benefiting and actively participating in defending the interest of capital against another group within the proletariat from whoms exploitation they are benefiting.
That’s why the revolution needs to be international and abolish all classes, not just economic ones but also social ones.
Hell the russian army in ww1 did horrible attrocoties and yet radical soldiers were still crucial for the bolsheviks to take power
Doesn’t make their actions okay… even if they mattered in achieving a goal. We still cannot simply apply a utilitarian calculus or trust me we will end up in morally horrific situations… we can’t justify radical soilders killing in the name of capital that somehow helped out in the proletarian revolution just because they helped out in the revolution.
Maybe I’m not getting your point here and misunderstanding what you meant by that.
Interests are tied to class, just because someone does something doesn’t inherently mean its in their class interests?
That’s… that’s literally what I’m saying… just because you are working class doesn’t mean you are fighting for the working class… which is why we can very reasonably argue that Israeli workers are not fighting for the working class but rather through their zionism aligning with capital and empire and should be dealt with accordingly…
There is literally no way possible to deal with or resolve imperialism or fascism or racism other then proletarian revolution. You cant destroy those things without destroying the material base theh stem from
Yes but that means dismantling all class relations which means we need to take an intersectional approach and see that not everybody within the working class is the same and that among us are even those who are doing everything to uphold systems of oppression.
Yeah… they’re working against their intereststs… most of the proletariat does that all the time it doesn’t mean their interests dont allign with the rest of the proletariat
Just because their interests allign with the proletariat doesn’t mean they aren’t working against them… and yes the vast majority of the proletariat does that all the time…
Guess what they don’t do…
Literally support and engage in fucking genocide and settler colonialism… like bro, what the fuck are you on… that difference fucking matters because it changes their relationship to capital and empire in a major way that makes them very different and opposed to the rest of the international proletariat and that matters.
Their relationship with the mode of production is the same and therefore their interests are the same? Again them working against them is utterly meaningless in a world without any communist movement lmao, thats like half the planet it’s not unique to isreal.
The mode of production isn’t the only thing that matters… because thats not the only thing that determines your relationship to capital. Yes they benefit from the oppression of others like the vast majority of the proletariat but the difference is that they are actively participating in that oppression and are ideologically alligned with it.
A European worker who isn’t even aware of where his clothes come from and is benefiting from Chinese sweatshops isn’t the same as a fucking IDF soilder… even though both benfit from forms of oppression, the Israeli soidlers direct involvement matters…
but that doesn’t make them magically a different class with a different relationship to the mode of production
I never said they are a different class per se… all I said is that there direct involvement with capitalist oppression and benefit from it still matter and make a difference… an American worker who benefits from the exploitation of a southasian worker is different than that south asian worker… their position in relation to capital is different even if they both have both have the same relationship to the mode of production.
I don’t think their interest do actually align with that of the international proletariat… it does with their natioanl section or racial section of the proletariat… but not with every group within the proletariat… because justice for that southasian worker would mean a financial loss for the American worker and so of course the american worker has a vested interest in upholding the oppression of that southasian worker… and that interest is gonna be a lot greater in the case of settler colonialism where an israeli bread baker who benefits from stolen Palestinians crops of course is gonna have a different set of interests to some degree than than Palestinian farmer or baker… I don’t understand why you don’t understand that simple point.
And the thing is that this interest in upholding bourgeois oppression against another group within the proletariat is of course gonna be at its most extreme in the case of fascism, imperialism and colonialism…
I never said they aren’t part of the proletariat sub the proletariat isn’t one homogenous class… it’s a class with subsections that are divided by bourgeois propaganda and ideology and systesm of interdependence built on exploitation and colonialsation… that makes it so that these groups within the proletariat can have opposing interests for their specific group…
Thats why need to erase those differences such as nationalism or gender if we ever want the international proletariat to be united as one because it isn’t one… the proletariat isn’t one homogenous thing…
Its about as legitimate as the rest of the States in the world
Fair point but we can agree that it is far worse than most other nations out there…
Again, working against his own interests, his class interests still align with the rest of the proletariat…
Again I think his interest are gonna be to some degree different than that of the rest of the proletariat because he benefits from the oppression of certain groups within the proletariat which is why he is inhibited from sharing the interests of those groups within the proletariat because he would make a loss if he actually fought for their liberation as well…
It’s an economic question… if by supporting the proletariat in place B, you’re living standard in place A is gonna get worse… how many people would support the proletariat in place B, even if they do so in Place A… not many… especially if you’re ideologically compelled to despise place A and are literally engaging in genocidal violence against them because you benefit from the oppression on place A as a place B person.
The actual awnser your looking for is thst revolutionary action is more likely to be taken by sections of the proletariat which face the oppression and contradictions of capital more, but that applies to minority groups and women in literally every country on the planet israel isn’t unique
Agreed but Israel is unique in the extent of its violence and that it is a genocidal and fascist settler colonial entity which many other nations are not… Israel isn’t comparable to a place like Madagascar or Algeria… saying otherwise is just a denial of reality at this point…
Either you think that the Israeli proletariat doesn’t have interests alligned eith the wide proletariat (wrong)
They do but also they have interests that don’t align with wider proletariat or interests that are opposed to the wider proletariat…
Social classes would wither away with the abolition of economic class thats kinda the point.
I don’t think you can have one without the other… both things need to be tackled simultaneously, one the one hand ideologically and on the other hand economically, i.e addressing the capitalist relations from which they are born…
I never said it did, the point was that just because a proletarian is “defending the interests of capital” (basically everyone does this but this is an extreme example) doesn’t mean that they’re enemies of the communist movement inherently
How so? If you are a fascist who’s killing communists or anti-colonialists then yeah you’re an enemy of the movement… yes you could be made to change sides but for most people who are this deeply ideologically invested in capital, that isn’t possible… again for some people we have leaflets but for other people you need to have bullets to defend yourself and fight against them… like isn’t that obvious…
No you keep on saying their interests dont allign which isn’t the same thing
True… I should have made that more clear but yeah some of their interests done align with those of the wider proletariat because they benefit from the oppression of others parts of the proletariat and want to uphold that.
Yes they’re not fighting for the working class… but neither are the Palestinians
Ever heard of the PLPF which was the communist equivalent of the PLO… yeah no historically many Palestinian resistance fighters were marxist or maoists…
That’s not to say I think Palestinians are wrong for resisting genocide of course they’re not but fundamentally their national liberation movement is a bourgois one
It can be that way but it doesn’t have to be that way and I think saying “well they are nationalists, so we shouldn’t support them” is stupid… and yeah some people who say they are communist do say that because they are retarded… one thing at a time… first national liberation… then class liberation… you can’t simply skip one step.
Also like again the number of people in the modern day who “fight for the working class” is basically 0
This is liberal thinking, no matter how many groups your benefited from the oppression of every single proletarian on the planet is still subject to the contradictions of capitalism, and therefore, has the same interests in overcoming them
Why… I just again am trying to point out the way global capitalism creates inter-dependencies on the oppression of other groups within the proletariat… how is that liberal thinking???
Replacing the Israeli bourgeoisie with a Palestinian bourgeoisie doesn’t change the class position of the Palestinian proletariat, and is literally nothing to do with proletarian revolution at all
Sorry… I was so involved in our conversation… I literally forgot the title… yeah it’s an exaggerated expression of frustration, maybe a genuinely held belief but I think it’s more of an overcorrection than a mistake…
I explained why I think the issue is more complicated and why the approach would to be very well thought out and is not something I somehow have a perfect solution for, sitting in my drawer… this would need the brain power of probably hundreds of people to think about and solve but well… that’s kind of an idealist view of looking at it considering the material reality on the ground right now…
i just want someone to tell me how israel is so different from the us or any other colonial state like brazil, mexico, canada, australia, etc. why arent we calling for colonist to be expelled from those places?
people say its because it isnt feasible but then neither is expelling 7 million jewish israelis. especially when a large number of them are or are descendants of arab jews who were expelled from surrounding countries and have no where to go. israel is almost a century old. the people living there are not going anywhere without the use of brutal force that will lead to the deaths and suffering of millions that would make the dissolution of yugoslavia look like a walk in the park.
I think the difference is the fact they are still actively engaging in the extermination of the indigenous population… that their colonial project isn’t finished yet and so still can be fought against which isn’t feasible in the case of the US… an ongoing anti-colonial struggle shouldn’t be dismissed just due to the succes of other atrocious colonial projects that destroyed any realistic opportunity for resistance… though yes we should have repartion or reparations or other measures for the native Americans for example and have that discussion… but that right now is not as important as preventing the completion of another colonial project…
Also I agree that simply expelling everybody isn’t a solution and wouldn’t work and that resolving the issue would need a very complicated and well thought out approach… but it would defineltly need decolonisation to some degree… would require dezionisation, demilitarisation, reparations, and so so so much more…
I hate this cop out so much. the indigenous americans arent wiped out. why are we giving up on them? theres millions left. especially in latin american countries.
yall cant keep saying their genocide is “over” when state violence is continued against indigenous communities to this day. its so fucked up
That’s a good point… but I think the issue is that in the case of the indigenous native Americans we really don’t have a movement with any feasible change chance of overthrowing their oppressors and colonizers…
But you’re right, saying “well they are all already dead anyway” is not okay and fucked up…
I never said that they aren’t technically proletariat but their are factors to consider when it comes to their relation to production and systems of extraction and oppression…
Were the american pioneers who genocided the native Americans also proletarians… what about white workers in apartheid south Africa… heck what about German workers during the Nazi regime… here’s the thing… yeah they do count as part of the proletariat but that doesn’t change their involvement and support for oppression and genocide and for fucks sake, how are you calling zionist settlers who literally disposess and steal land, thereby owning land, and then on top those in Israeli territory who employ Palestinians from the west bank for a slave wage, how do you call them proletarian in any meaningful fucking way…
A German nazi household who rented a jew from a force labour camp as a house maid (as they historically fucking did) was still a household where the father went and sold his labour… doesn’t change the fact that they essentially engaged in fucking slavery… proletariat isn’t a moral category… that’s right.
But to lump everybody into the category of proletarian equally while ignoring these major fucking issues of oppression that defineltly show that these people engage or at least benefit from labour extractive practices the same or at least similar way that the bourgeois do… that’s just fucking stupid…
And it doesn’t change the fact that the alignment with the spirit of the proletariat is more relevant than the mere fact of selling one’s labor… if you work for and benefit from bourgeois interests, even if just indirectly through colonial extraction done by your government or the cooperation that you sell your labour too, that still makes you very much morally complicit to some degrees… same is true for European proletarians who benefit from the first world extracting resources from the third world… but It’s an issue of degree… and if you literally employ slaves, use force labour, support apartheid or engage in genocide against indigenous populations or are a Fascist, then I think the fact that you are literally working to defend the interest of capital in the most aggressive way possible takes precedent over the fact that you also sell your labour…
When the soviets fought the nazi germans, they weren’t lamenting the fact that they were killing other working class people, they were thinking about the fact that they are fighting fascists…
And the same is true for apartheid, occupation, colonialism, imperialism and genocide…
I’m not gonna say “oh look at the poor American or Israeli soilder whos gleefully killing children… he’s also selling his labour, he’s one of us” because that’s fucking retarded… I’m gonna be thinking and saying “that person is a fascists working for empire in the interest of capital”… because that is the honest answer about their relation to capital
Of course again morally it’s a issue of degree and difference. An American adult isn’t the same as a child. A civilian not the same as a soilder, a worker not the same as capitalist but that doesn’t change the fact that they all benefit from the imperialist and fascist system they live under and they also largely support
deleted by creator
a) maybe my language was a bit flowery… what I meant by spirit of the proletariat, I don’t even remember writing it like that, was aligning with the interests of the international proletariat… and if they act against the interest of the international proletariat that doesn’t make them not proletarian but it makes them an enemy of the cause because they are literally fighting on behalf of capital.
b) Israeli is not a country, its an imperialist outpost for the American empire and a colonial settler ethno-state… yes there are Palestinian bourgeois but that doesn’t change the fact that they still suffer from colonization and occupation… also I never said that each group is one class, all I said was that they have different relationship to capital from a perspective of colonization and labou extraction…
c) You say they are obviously bourgeois but again if you look at the German example of the working household with a Jewish maid from a force labour camp, they are obviously also still working class because they are still selling their labour at one point or another…
d) that’s an issue of history… I was talking about the principle… somebody fighting against a Fascist State employing working class men as soilders isn’t gonna think and shouldnt think about the fact that they are working class men foremost but rather about the fact that they are fighting against a Fascist state… death and war is always a tragedy nonetheless but don’t pretend these two working class men are standing on equal footing if one of them is a Fascist from conviction and the other is not…
e) it isn’t about morality… it’s about in what interest you are employing your labour… if you’re selling your labour to defend capital then you are still complicit in capitalist oppression… a police officer or soilder is still selling their labour but that doesn’t change the fact that they are acting on behalf of capital and thereby are an enemy to the proletarian cause and should be treated as such as long as they stat complicit in capitalist violence against the working class, because when the working class acts against their own interests, there are different levels of approaching it, one would be education and recruitment and even support, but the moment we reach people who are literally killing for empire and capital en mass, then giving them a book or leaflet is not gonna work and they need to be treated as what they are: fascists…
I didn’t see Ababail taking about that and even if he did, it is reasonable to expect a lot of reparations and that at one point certain people would need to leave… if you’re family lived there for two/three generations as an Israeli then yes your grandpa and father and maybe even you were participating in oppression against Palestinians… but you should be treated differently than somebody who’s an American jew who’s been living there for 5 years or came with the expressed purpose of fighting for the IDF… the issue or complicity is sadly so far reaching in Israel that an approach such as in South Africa would probably fail and even an approach such as in nazi Germany has been shown to not have been fully effective considering the state of Germany today… so the question of how to resolve this issue is very complicated… neither simply kicking out every Israeli is gonna work nor simply ignoring everything that has happened is gonna work… and the same is true, though very reasonably so tona lesser degree, for the Palestinian side of the issue…
deleted by creator
What? Like genuinely… that’s stupid… you can be working class and still work against your own class interests… like if you’re a Mexican American man who’s working two jobs but you still vote for Trump… aren’t you literally working against your own interests??? Like ofc that’s possible. Belonging to the proletariat doesn’t magically give you class consciousness.
Very fair point. Nationalism is dumb. I wanted to just point out the illegitimate nature of the existence of the zionist state…
Why is it confusing to you that an Israeli worker or settler has a very different relationship to empire and capital even if his relationship to the mode of production on paper is similar or the same as that of a a Palestinian worker and that an Israeli worker being a zionist means he’s working against the interests of the working class and participating in colonial oppression.
Like why don’t you get it that it’s more complicated than “selling labour or owning capital” because our understanding of Marxism shouldn’t end with Marx, that’s why people like Lenin and Mao expanded on these issues and explained them further… colonial dimensions, gender, and a lot more intersections aspects matter in class analysis… of course they do…
So it should be obvious that an Israeli worker is complicit in the oppression of Palestinians by literally stealing and occupying land even if he technically still sells his labour… his relationship to capital and empire is different in a way that is very much relevant for analysis.
Fair point. That was a little harshly worded on my end by I still think my point matters.
That’s not what I’m saying… you can be proletarian and still hit a cat… what I’m saying is that their interests Don’t align with the working class fully or regardless of particular differences… and often times they are fully working against the interests of the working class… because they are influenced by systems of oppression that they benefit from and therefore shape their interests… And influenced by bourgeois propaganda, in this case specifically fascist and ethno-nationalist propaganda and zionism…
You can be a worker and yes even though negotiating for a better wage with your capitalist boss is you fighting for the interest of your class, that doesn’t change the fact that there are intersectional differences… a black worker under apartheid and a white worker benefiting from apartheid are both workers…
And yet the white worker is one the one hand figting for his working class interests but limits that fight to his own race because he still benefits from apartheid oppression, socially and financially… making him complicit in bourgeois oppression because racism is defended ideologically but conducted economically… same for gender and other forms of oppression… and as long as that white worker doesn’t turn against these systems of oppression as well, he is complicit to some degree in bourgeois oppression and partly benefiting from it…
And if you take this to the extreme we end up with proletarian settlers who yes are proletariat but need to be held accountable to the fact that they are benefiting and actively participating in defending the interest of capital against another group within the proletariat from whoms exploitation they are benefiting.
That’s why the revolution needs to be international and abolish all classes, not just economic ones but also social ones.
Doesn’t make their actions okay… even if they mattered in achieving a goal. We still cannot simply apply a utilitarian calculus or trust me we will end up in morally horrific situations… we can’t justify radical soilders killing in the name of capital that somehow helped out in the proletarian revolution just because they helped out in the revolution.
Maybe I’m not getting your point here and misunderstanding what you meant by that.
That’s… that’s literally what I’m saying… just because you are working class doesn’t mean you are fighting for the working class… which is why we can very reasonably argue that Israeli workers are not fighting for the working class but rather through their zionism aligning with capital and empire and should be dealt with accordingly…
Yes but that means dismantling all class relations which means we need to take an intersectional approach and see that not everybody within the working class is the same and that among us are even those who are doing everything to uphold systems of oppression.
deleted by creator
Just because their interests allign with the proletariat doesn’t mean they aren’t working against them… and yes the vast majority of the proletariat does that all the time…
Guess what they don’t do…
Literally support and engage in fucking genocide and settler colonialism… like bro, what the fuck are you on… that difference fucking matters because it changes their relationship to capital and empire in a major way that makes them very different and opposed to the rest of the international proletariat and that matters.
deleted by creator
The mode of production isn’t the only thing that matters… because thats not the only thing that determines your relationship to capital. Yes they benefit from the oppression of others like the vast majority of the proletariat but the difference is that they are actively participating in that oppression and are ideologically alligned with it.
A European worker who isn’t even aware of where his clothes come from and is benefiting from Chinese sweatshops isn’t the same as a fucking IDF soilder… even though both benfit from forms of oppression, the Israeli soidlers direct involvement matters…
I never said they are a different class per se… all I said is that there direct involvement with capitalist oppression and benefit from it still matter and make a difference… an American worker who benefits from the exploitation of a southasian worker is different than that south asian worker… their position in relation to capital is different even if they both have both have the same relationship to the mode of production.
I don’t think their interest do actually align with that of the international proletariat… it does with their natioanl section or racial section of the proletariat… but not with every group within the proletariat… because justice for that southasian worker would mean a financial loss for the American worker and so of course the american worker has a vested interest in upholding the oppression of that southasian worker… and that interest is gonna be a lot greater in the case of settler colonialism where an israeli bread baker who benefits from stolen Palestinians crops of course is gonna have a different set of interests to some degree than than Palestinian farmer or baker… I don’t understand why you don’t understand that simple point.
And the thing is that this interest in upholding bourgeois oppression against another group within the proletariat is of course gonna be at its most extreme in the case of fascism, imperialism and colonialism…
I never said they aren’t part of the proletariat sub the proletariat isn’t one homogenous class… it’s a class with subsections that are divided by bourgeois propaganda and ideology and systesm of interdependence built on exploitation and colonialsation… that makes it so that these groups within the proletariat can have opposing interests for their specific group…
Thats why need to erase those differences such as nationalism or gender if we ever want the international proletariat to be united as one because it isn’t one… the proletariat isn’t one homogenous thing…
Did you just delete your comment cause you kinda conceded the point or why?
deleted by creator
Oh okay…
deleted by creator
Fair point but we can agree that it is far worse than most other nations out there…
Again I think his interest are gonna be to some degree different than that of the rest of the proletariat because he benefits from the oppression of certain groups within the proletariat which is why he is inhibited from sharing the interests of those groups within the proletariat because he would make a loss if he actually fought for their liberation as well…
It’s an economic question… if by supporting the proletariat in place B, you’re living standard in place A is gonna get worse… how many people would support the proletariat in place B, even if they do so in Place A… not many… especially if you’re ideologically compelled to despise place A and are literally engaging in genocidal violence against them because you benefit from the oppression on place A as a place B person.
Agreed but Israel is unique in the extent of its violence and that it is a genocidal and fascist settler colonial entity which many other nations are not… Israel isn’t comparable to a place like Madagascar or Algeria… saying otherwise is just a denial of reality at this point…
They do but also they have interests that don’t align with wider proletariat or interests that are opposed to the wider proletariat…
I don’t think you can have one without the other… both things need to be tackled simultaneously, one the one hand ideologically and on the other hand economically, i.e addressing the capitalist relations from which they are born…
How so? If you are a fascist who’s killing communists or anti-colonialists then yeah you’re an enemy of the movement… yes you could be made to change sides but for most people who are this deeply ideologically invested in capital, that isn’t possible… again for some people we have leaflets but for other people you need to have bullets to defend yourself and fight against them… like isn’t that obvious…
True… I should have made that more clear but yeah some of their interests done align with those of the wider proletariat because they benefit from the oppression of others parts of the proletariat and want to uphold that.
Ever heard of the PLPF which was the communist equivalent of the PLO… yeah no historically many Palestinian resistance fighters were marxist or maoists…
It can be that way but it doesn’t have to be that way and I think saying “well they are nationalists, so we shouldn’t support them” is stupid… and yeah some people who say they are communist do say that because they are retarded… one thing at a time… first national liberation… then class liberation… you can’t simply skip one step.
Really… I think that’s just defeatism…
deleted by creator
But it is one of the worst clearly…
Why… I just again am trying to point out the way global capitalism creates inter-dependencies on the oppression of other groups within the proletariat… how is that liberal thinking???
Fair point…
>I didn’t see Ababail taking about that
what? the title of this post is literally
“Israel shouldn’t exist and it’s colonists should be expelled to the countries they came from originally, with or without force”
Sorry… I was so involved in our conversation… I literally forgot the title… yeah it’s an exaggerated expression of frustration, maybe a genuinely held belief but I think it’s more of an overcorrection than a mistake…
I explained why I think the issue is more complicated and why the approach would to be very well thought out and is not something I somehow have a perfect solution for, sitting in my drawer… this would need the brain power of probably hundreds of people to think about and solve but well… that’s kind of an idealist view of looking at it considering the material reality on the ground right now…
i just want someone to tell me how israel is so different from the us or any other colonial state like brazil, mexico, canada, australia, etc. why arent we calling for colonist to be expelled from those places?
people say its because it isnt feasible but then neither is expelling 7 million jewish israelis. especially when a large number of them are or are descendants of arab jews who were expelled from surrounding countries and have no where to go. israel is almost a century old. the people living there are not going anywhere without the use of brutal force that will lead to the deaths and suffering of millions that would make the dissolution of yugoslavia look like a walk in the park.
I think the difference is the fact they are still actively engaging in the extermination of the indigenous population… that their colonial project isn’t finished yet and so still can be fought against which isn’t feasible in the case of the US… an ongoing anti-colonial struggle shouldn’t be dismissed just due to the succes of other atrocious colonial projects that destroyed any realistic opportunity for resistance… though yes we should have repartion or reparations or other measures for the native Americans for example and have that discussion… but that right now is not as important as preventing the completion of another colonial project…
Also I agree that simply expelling everybody isn’t a solution and wouldn’t work and that resolving the issue would need a very complicated and well thought out approach… but it would defineltly need decolonisation to some degree… would require dezionisation, demilitarisation, reparations, and so so so much more…
I hate this cop out so much. the indigenous americans arent wiped out. why are we giving up on them? theres millions left. especially in latin american countries.
yall cant keep saying their genocide is “over” when state violence is continued against indigenous communities to this day. its so fucked up
That’s a good point… but I think the issue is that in the case of the indigenous native Americans we really don’t have a movement with any feasible change chance of overthrowing their oppressors and colonizers…
But you’re right, saying “well they are all already dead anyway” is not okay and fucked up…