What the fuck is wrong with you all… Ababil is right
But have you thought of the baby killer idf recruit israeli worker that is literally the same as a palestinian mom of 5 getting airstriked everyday? They should unite and overthrow the bourgeoise and israelis will accept becoming instantly poorer and worse off because they arent enslaving palestinians anymore under an apartheid colonial regime loool
It’s so funny comparing colonial settles to the fucking working class indigenous proletariat… some people are braindead ngl
Please describe to me how there is not a proletariat in Israel. Do you know what that word means? Do they not sell their labour power in exchange for a wage? Has Israel abolished class and wage labour?
Proletariat inst a moral caragory dipshit. Calling someone “working class” is not a measure of moral worth its based on their conditions in relation to the mode of production
I never said that they aren’t technically proletariat but their are factors to consider when it comes to their relation to production and systems of extraction and oppression…
Were the american pioneers who genocided the native Americans also proletarians… what about white workers in apartheid south Africa… heck what about German workers during the Nazi regime… here’s the thing… yeah they do count as part of the proletariat but that doesn’t change their involvement and support for oppression and genocide and for fucks sake, how are you calling zionist settlers who literally disposess and steal land, thereby owning land, and then on top those in Israeli territory who employ Palestinians from the west bank for a slave wage, how do you call them proletarian in any meaningful fucking way…
A German nazi household who rented a jew from a force labour camp as a house maid (as they historically fucking did) was still a household where the father went and sold his labour… doesn’t change the fact that they essentially engaged in fucking slavery… proletariat isn’t a moral category… that’s right.
But to lump everybody into the category of proletarian equally while ignoring these major fucking issues of oppression that defineltly show that these people engage or at least benefit from labour extractive practices the same or at least similar way that the bourgeois do… that’s just fucking stupid…
And it doesn’t change the fact that the alignment with the spirit of the proletariat is more relevant than the mere fact of selling one’s labor… if you work for and benefit from bourgeois interests, even if just indirectly through colonial extraction done by your government or the cooperation that you sell your labour too, that still makes you very much morally complicit to some degrees… same is true for European proletarians who benefit from the first world extracting resources from the third world… but It’s an issue of degree… and if you literally employ slaves, use force labour, support apartheid or engage in genocide against indigenous populations or are a Fascist, then I think the fact that you are literally working to defend the interest of capital in the most aggressive way possible takes precedent over the fact that you also sell your labour…
When the soviets fought the nazi germans, they weren’t lamenting the fact that they were killing other working class people, they were thinking about the fact that they are fighting fascists…
And the same is true for apartheid, occupation, colonialism, imperialism and genocide…
I’m not gonna say “oh look at the poor American or Israeli soilder whos gleefully killing children… he’s also selling his labour, he’s one of us” because that’s fucking retarded… I’m gonna be thinking and saying “that person is a fascists working for empire in the interest of capital”… because that is the honest answer about their relation to capital
Of course again morally it’s a issue of degree and difference. An American adult isn’t the same as a child. A civilian not the same as a soilder, a worker not the same as capitalist but that doesn’t change the fact that they all benefit from the imperialist and fascist system they live under and they also largely support
“Allignment with the spirit of the proletariat”
What. They’re inventing whole new levels of idealism with this one. When the proletariat does something bad they’re still very much proletarian lmao, again its not a moral caragory even if that upsets you. Do you actually like, understand Marxist class analysis?
and then on top those in Israeli territory who employ Palestinians from the west bank for a slave wage
These are obviously bourgeois? just as there is Palestinians bourgeoisie as well? Neither country is entirely one single class are you retardrd
When the soviets fought the nazi germans, they weren’t lamenting the fact that they were killing other working class people, they were thinking about the fact that they are fighting fascists…
A.) The soviets were a capitalist state by the time of ww2
B.) Again “working class” isn’t a moral caragory… it’s doesn’t make them inherently more good or worthy than anyone else Marxism isn’t about moralism
oh look at the poor American or Israeli soilder whos gleefully killing children… he’s also selling his labour, he’s one of us
Ok well a.) As much as I loathe them they are “one of us” in that I share a class with them, class isn’t a moral category… stop thinking of it as a moral category
And b.) Thats also not rlly what oop said she literally called for the ethnic cleansing of all those not tied to the land by blood lmao
What. They’re inventing whole new levels of idealism with this one. When the proletariat does something bad they’re still very much proletarian lmao, again its not a moral caragory even if that upsets you. Do you actually like, understand Marxist class analysis?
a) maybe my language was a bit flowery… what I meant by spirit of the proletariat, I don’t even remember writing it like that, was aligning with the interests of the international proletariat… and if they act against the interest of the international proletariat that doesn’t make them not proletarian but it makes them an enemy of the cause because they are literally fighting on behalf of capital.
These are obviously bourgeois? just as there is Palestinians bourgeoisie as well? Neither country is entirely one single class are you retardrd
b) Israeli is not a country, its an imperialist outpost for the American empire and a colonial settler ethno-state… yes there are Palestinian bourgeois but that doesn’t change the fact that they still suffer from colonization and occupation… also I never said that each group is one class, all I said was that they have different relationship to capital from a perspective of colonization and labou extraction…
c) You say they are obviously bourgeois but again if you look at the German example of the working household with a Jewish maid from a force labour camp, they are obviously also still working class because they are still selling their labour at one point or another…
The soviets were a capitalist state by the time of ww2
d) that’s an issue of history… I was talking about the principle… somebody fighting against a Fascist State employing working class men as soilders isn’t gonna think and shouldnt think about the fact that they are working class men foremost but rather about the fact that they are fighting against a Fascist state… death and war is always a tragedy nonetheless but don’t pretend these two working class men are standing on equal footing if one of them is a Fascist from conviction and the other is not…
As much as I loathe them they are “one of us” in that I share a class with them, class isn’t a moral category… stop thinking of it as a moral category
e) it isn’t about morality… it’s about in what interest you are employing your labour… if you’re selling your labour to defend capital then you are still complicit in capitalist oppression… a police officer or soilder is still selling their labour but that doesn’t change the fact that they are acting on behalf of capital and thereby are an enemy to the proletarian cause and should be treated as such as long as they stat complicit in capitalist violence against the working class, because when the working class acts against their own interests, there are different levels of approaching it, one would be education and recruitment and even support, but the moment we reach people who are literally killing for empire and capital en mass, then giving them a book or leaflet is not gonna work and they need to be treated as what they are: fascists…
Thats also not rlly what oop said she literally called for the ethnic cleansing of all those not tied to the land by blood lmao
I didn’t see Ababail taking about that and even if he did, it is reasonable to expect a lot of reparations and that at one point certain people would need to leave… if you’re family lived there for two/three generations as an Israeli then yes your grandpa and father and maybe even you were participating in oppression against Palestinians… but you should be treated differently than somebody who’s an American jew who’s been living there for 5 years or came with the expressed purpose of fighting for the IDF… the issue or complicity is sadly so far reaching in Israel that an approach such as in South Africa would probably fail and even an approach such as in nazi Germany has been shown to not have been fully effective considering the state of Germany today… so the question of how to resolve this issue is very complicated… neither simply kicking out every Israeli is gonna work nor simply ignoring everything that has happened is gonna work… and the same is true, though very reasonably so tona lesser degree, for the Palestinian side of the issue…
Even the proletariat who do morally bad things align with the interests of the international proletariat that’s how class works
Israeli is not a country
No country is a “real country” the entire concept of a national community is bourgeois fiction.
because they are still selling their labour at one point or another…
Class isn’t defined by the number row good/bad thigns you do its defined by your relationship with the mode of production… why is this confusing to you
shouldnt think about the fact that they are working class men foremost
Thats how i think about all people… im a marxist. Being working class, again, does not mean they hold higher moral worth… how many times do I need to say that. You can be proletarian and have interests alligned with the proletariat and do bad things. Hell the russian army in ww1 did horrible attrocoties and yet radical soldiers were still crucial for the bolsheviks to take power
but the moment we reach people who are literally killing for empire and capital en mass, giving them a book or a leaflet isn’t gonna work
I will once again point out the historical importance of radical soldiers (who absolutely killed people in the name of capital) in historical proletariaian revolts
it’s about in what interest you are employing your labour…
Interests are tied to class, just because someone does something doesn’t inherently mean its in their class interests? Workers globally all vote for bourgeois parties all the time, that isn’t in their interest and serves capital? I beg you read marx…
the question of how to resolve this issue is very complicated…
There is literally no way possible to deal with or resolve imperialism or fascism or racism other then proletarian revolution. You cant destroy those things without destroying the material base theh stem from
>I didn’t see Ababail taking about that
what? the title of this post is literally
“Israel shouldn’t exist and it’s colonists should be expelled to the countries they came from originally, with or without force”
This should be uncontroversial, settler colonists are less than human.
Girl…
I dont care really i will stand my ground despite everyone disagreeing lol
okay, so where are we putting the 300 million plus european americans?
oh. how could i forget latin america too? add all those of european descent in those countries, plus canada, the aussies and the kiwis too. only probably like a billion people who need to be ethnically cleansed
And? That is different. Their genocide and finished a long time ago, but Palestinians still exist. This should be a lesson that we can indeed have a world without genocidial settlers trying to erase a society. Im just saying that it’s the realistic thing that will happen if Israel falls eventually since No palestinian will welcome them with open arms after 80 years of apartheid rule, similar to Algeria, South Africa, Rhodesia etc.
finished? native americans are still alive and have communities. same with the maori, indigenous australians, and especially in latin americs there are very large populations of indigenous peoples. they are still alive.
so if we are decolonizing palestine, we need to do it everywhere. otherwise your position isnt based on material struggle if you get to pick and choose how its applied
Yeah like 2 people to 200000 white americans. Their societies have been effectively wiped off. It’s finished. It’s not realistic anymore
and expelling how many millions of israelis is?
and what about in latin america? the quecha still make up around 20% or so of peru’s population. more in bolivia i believe. can we not expel the Europeans from those countries still?
they can stay in america? you’re retarded
what is so different about the european settlers in the americas and oceania vs the israelis?
“the european settlers” you mean their great-great-great-great-great-great grandkids? you’re retarded
okay so what about people born in israel as israelis? do they get to stay?
why does the distinction matter anyway? there are still indigenous americans. they were still here first. we are just the descendants of colonials no different from the people you are criticizing. we either ethnically cleanse all colonial settlers and their descendants or none. you cant have it both ways
no, the children of settlers don’t get to stay because they can’t be there without sustained conflict. this is the difference that you don’t seem to be catching. the sustained presence of israel where it is requires continuous bloodshed forever. our ancestors are no different but that happened 400 years ago and nothing can be done about it other than pushing for native americans to be given reparations (that they aren’t ever going to recieve). something can still be done about the multiple genocides going on in the middle east and those cannot stop as long as israel is where it is. israel’s location is incompatible with peace. they should have just come to america and set up a diaspora here like everyone else did but they decided not to and here we are.
the presence of european settlers in the americas still requires daily bloodshed too. is it not as important because its not as many people? you act like the genocide is over, like indigenous women arent continually brutalized and the conditions of peoples on reservations ignored by the state. like residential schools werent still a thing until the 90s in places. like indigenous americans didnt recieve citizenship until the 1920s in the US. like their suffrage wasnt suppressed far into the 70s, like they still arent oppressed into the current day with court decisions.
you say nothing can be done. but thats a cop out. nothing can realistically be done about israel either, but you still call for their ethnic cleansing. so why not do the same for the rest of the colonists and their descendants? or do you some how think we can realistically remove millions of israelis from the region without a genocide?
i didnt call for anyone’s ethnic cleansing. you’re a retard and frankly im too drunk for this.
Blood and soil nationalism but we’re making it woke, this isn’t even about stopping the genocide lmao its just “ethnicly cleanse those not connected to the land by blood”
ethnicly cleanse those not connected to the land by blood
But we won’t say anything about that the same people swear to be connected to that land by blood and genocide it’s actual native population? it’s just dumb nationalism bro how dare palestinians feel nationalistic about not wanting to be wiped out bro
Isreal is bad for doing blood and soil and genocide so we HAVE to do blood and soil nationalism and genocide. This is the real movement.
so we HAVE to do blood and soil nationalism and genocide
Well genocide is a strong word and you are essentially equating the israeli genocide towards palestinians to whatever toy rockets palestinians are firing to israeli bomb shelters. yeah they are literally the same, israeli workers have nothing to lose but their chains and the apartheid state that is materially beneficial to them in every sense with palestinians being oppressed
No im equating it to the hypothetical forceful removal of millions of people see post title
Boohoo how sad they have to leave the stolen land they genocided the indigenous people of for 80 years and leave to the actual countries they come from in Europe and hold double nationalities of
Sorry im a marxist i dont really believe in concepts like “connection to the land” or “actual countries”
okay but you dont see how this would create the greatest humantarian crisis of all time and lead to the suffering deaths of millions including innocent children who had no say in any of this?
Ababil you will forever be based for this.
If u disagree with this I don’t like you
crazy that you just keep going
Yes
