Even the proletariat who do morally bad things align with the interests of the international proletariat that’s how class works
What? Like genuinely… that’s stupid… you can be working class and still work against your own class interests… like if you’re a Mexican American man who’s working two jobs but you still vote for Trump… aren’t you literally working against your own interests??? Like ofc that’s possible. Belonging to the proletariat doesn’t magically give you class consciousness.
No country is a “real country” the entire concept of a national community is bourgeois fiction.
Very fair point. Nationalism is dumb. I wanted to just point out the illegitimate nature of the existence of the zionist state…
Class isn’t defined by the number row good/bad thigns you do its defined by your relationship with the mode of production… why is this confusing to you
Why is it confusing to you that an Israeli worker or settler has a very different relationship to empire and capital even if his relationship to the mode of production on paper is similar or the same as that of a a Palestinian worker and that an Israeli worker being a zionist means he’s working against the interests of the working class and participating in colonial oppression.
Like why don’t you get it that it’s more complicated than “selling labour or owning capital” because our understanding of Marxism shouldn’t end with Marx, that’s why people like Lenin and Mao expanded on these issues and explained them further… colonial dimensions, gender, and a lot more intersections aspects matter in class analysis… of course they do…
So it should be obvious that an Israeli worker is complicit in the oppression of Palestinians by literally stealing and occupying land even if he technically still sells his labour… his relationship to capital and empire is different in a way that is very much relevant for analysis.
Thats how i think about all people… im a marxist.
Fair point. That was a little harshly worded on my end by I still think my point matters.
You can be proletarian and have interests alligned with the proletariat and do bad things
That’s not what I’m saying… you can be proletarian and still hit a cat… what I’m saying is that their interests Don’t align with the working class fully or regardless of particular differences… and often times they are fully working against the interests of the working class… because they are influenced by systems of oppression that they benefit from and therefore shape their interests… And influenced by bourgeois propaganda, in this case specifically fascist and ethno-nationalist propaganda and zionism…
You can be a worker and yes even though negotiating for a better wage with your capitalist boss is you fighting for the interest of your class, that doesn’t change the fact that there are intersectional differences… a black worker under apartheid and a white worker benefiting from apartheid are both workers…
And yet the white worker is one the one hand figting for his working class interests but limits that fight to his own race because he still benefits from apartheid oppression, socially and financially… making him complicit in bourgeois oppression because racism is defended ideologically but conducted economically… same for gender and other forms of oppression… and as long as that white worker doesn’t turn against these systems of oppression as well, he is complicit to some degree in bourgeois oppression and partly benefiting from it…
And if you take this to the extreme we end up with proletarian settlers who yes are proletariat but need to be held accountable to the fact that they are benefiting and actively participating in defending the interest of capital against another group within the proletariat from whoms exploitation they are benefiting.
That’s why the revolution needs to be international and abolish all classes, not just economic ones but also social ones.
Hell the russian army in ww1 did horrible attrocoties and yet radical soldiers were still crucial for the bolsheviks to take power
Doesn’t make their actions okay… even if they mattered in achieving a goal. We still cannot simply apply a utilitarian calculus or trust me we will end up in morally horrific situations… we can’t justify radical soilders killing in the name of capital that somehow helped out in the proletarian revolution just because they helped out in the revolution.
Maybe I’m not getting your point here and misunderstanding what you meant by that.
Interests are tied to class, just because someone does something doesn’t inherently mean its in their class interests?
That’s… that’s literally what I’m saying… just because you are working class doesn’t mean you are fighting for the working class… which is why we can very reasonably argue that Israeli workers are not fighting for the working class but rather through their zionism aligning with capital and empire and should be dealt with accordingly…
There is literally no way possible to deal with or resolve imperialism or fascism or racism other then proletarian revolution. You cant destroy those things without destroying the material base theh stem from
Yes but that means dismantling all class relations which means we need to take an intersectional approach and see that not everybody within the working class is the same and that among us are even those who are doing everything to uphold systems of oppression.
Its about as legitimate as the rest of the States in the world
Fair point but we can agree that it is far worse than most other nations out there…
Again, working against his own interests, his class interests still align with the rest of the proletariat…
Again I think his interest are gonna be to some degree different than that of the rest of the proletariat because he benefits from the oppression of certain groups within the proletariat which is why he is inhibited from sharing the interests of those groups within the proletariat because he would make a loss if he actually fought for their liberation as well…
It’s an economic question… if by supporting the proletariat in place B, you’re living standard in place A is gonna get worse… how many people would support the proletariat in place B, even if they do so in Place A… not many… especially if you’re ideologically compelled to despise place A and are literally engaging in genocidal violence against them because you benefit from the oppression on place A as a place B person.
The actual awnser your looking for is thst revolutionary action is more likely to be taken by sections of the proletariat which face the oppression and contradictions of capital more, but that applies to minority groups and women in literally every country on the planet israel isn’t unique
Agreed but Israel is unique in the extent of its violence and that it is a genocidal and fascist settler colonial entity which many other nations are not… Israel isn’t comparable to a place like Madagascar or Algeria… saying otherwise is just a denial of reality at this point…
Either you think that the Israeli proletariat doesn’t have interests alligned eith the wide proletariat (wrong)
They do but also they have interests that don’t align with wider proletariat or interests that are opposed to the wider proletariat…
Social classes would wither away with the abolition of economic class thats kinda the point.
I don’t think you can have one without the other… both things need to be tackled simultaneously, one the one hand ideologically and on the other hand economically, i.e addressing the capitalist relations from which they are born…
I never said it did, the point was that just because a proletarian is “defending the interests of capital” (basically everyone does this but this is an extreme example) doesn’t mean that they’re enemies of the communist movement inherently
How so? If you are a fascist who’s killing communists or anti-colonialists then yeah you’re an enemy of the movement… yes you could be made to change sides but for most people who are this deeply ideologically invested in capital, that isn’t possible… again for some people we have leaflets but for other people you need to have bullets to defend yourself and fight against them… like isn’t that obvious…
No you keep on saying their interests dont allign which isn’t the same thing
True… I should have made that more clear but yeah some of their interests done align with those of the wider proletariat because they benefit from the oppression of others parts of the proletariat and want to uphold that.
Yes they’re not fighting for the working class… but neither are the Palestinians
Ever heard of the PLPF which was the communist equivalent of the PLO… yeah no historically many Palestinian resistance fighters were marxist or maoists…
That’s not to say I think Palestinians are wrong for resisting genocide of course they’re not but fundamentally their national liberation movement is a bourgois one
It can be that way but it doesn’t have to be that way and I think saying “well they are nationalists, so we shouldn’t support them” is stupid… and yeah some people who say they are communist do say that because they are retarded… one thing at a time… first national liberation… then class liberation… you can’t simply skip one step.
Also like again the number of people in the modern day who “fight for the working class” is basically 0
This is liberal thinking, no matter how many groups your benefited from the oppression of every single proletarian on the planet is still subject to the contradictions of capitalism, and therefore, has the same interests in overcoming them
Why… I just again am trying to point out the way global capitalism creates inter-dependencies on the oppression of other groups within the proletariat… how is that liberal thinking???
Replacing the Israeli bourgeoisie with a Palestinian bourgeoisie doesn’t change the class position of the Palestinian proletariat, and is literally nothing to do with proletarian revolution at all
But you cannot immediately dismantle capitalism… you need to first address these issues under capitalism and thereby weaken capitalist structures before you can dismantle capitalism
Yeah… they’re working against their intereststs… most of the proletariat does that all the time it doesn’t mean their interests dont allign with the rest of the proletariat
Just because their interests allign with the proletariat doesn’t mean they aren’t working against them… and yes the vast majority of the proletariat does that all the time…
Guess what they don’t do…
Literally support and engage in fucking genocide and settler colonialism… like bro, what the fuck are you on… that difference fucking matters because it changes their relationship to capital and empire in a major way that makes them very different and opposed to the rest of the international proletariat and that matters.
Their relationship with the mode of production is the same and therefore their interests are the same? Again them working against them is utterly meaningless in a world without any communist movement lmao, thats like half the planet it’s not unique to isreal.
The mode of production isn’t the only thing that matters… because thats not the only thing that determines your relationship to capital. Yes they benefit from the oppression of others like the vast majority of the proletariat but the difference is that they are actively participating in that oppression and are ideologically alligned with it.
A European worker who isn’t even aware of where his clothes come from and is benefiting from Chinese sweatshops isn’t the same as a fucking IDF soilder… even though both benfit from forms of oppression, the Israeli soidlers direct involvement matters…
but that doesn’t make them magically a different class with a different relationship to the mode of production
I never said they are a different class per se… all I said is that there direct involvement with capitalist oppression and benefit from it still matter and make a difference… an American worker who benefits from the exploitation of a southasian worker is different than that south asian worker… their position in relation to capital is different even if they both have both have the same relationship to the mode of production.
I don’t think their interest do actually align with that of the international proletariat… it does with their natioanl section or racial section of the proletariat… but not with every group within the proletariat… because justice for that southasian worker would mean a financial loss for the American worker and so of course the american worker has a vested interest in upholding the oppression of that southasian worker… and that interest is gonna be a lot greater in the case of settler colonialism where an israeli bread baker who benefits from stolen Palestinians crops of course is gonna have a different set of interests to some degree than than Palestinian farmer or baker… I don’t understand why you don’t understand that simple point.
And the thing is that this interest in upholding bourgeois oppression against another group within the proletariat is of course gonna be at its most extreme in the case of fascism, imperialism and colonialism…
I never said they aren’t part of the proletariat sub the proletariat isn’t one homogenous class… it’s a class with subsections that are divided by bourgeois propaganda and ideology and systesm of interdependence built on exploitation and colonialsation… that makes it so that these groups within the proletariat can have opposing interests for their specific group…
Thats why need to erase those differences such as nationalism or gender if we ever want the international proletariat to be united as one because it isn’t one… the proletariat isn’t one homogenous thing…
Interests come from your relationship with the mode of production. […] The interests of both groups would mean an end yo commodity production, the law of value, money etc entirely
I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that this is the only factor which determines your interests… I think that is too simplistic… I think your position within capitalist structures matters… because you can be oppressed in one way and still participate in oppression of others in other ways… that seems to be true to me…
Seriously… all I was saying is that groups within the proletariat will have specific interests that clash with that of other groups within the proletariat due to burgeois systems that have created in some groups of the proletariat a dependency on the oppression of other parts of the proletariat… I’m literally just talking about the issues that arise from capitalist globalization and colonialism and imperialism…
And yes only an international revolution could fix that… I really don’t understand it… if you depend as a worker on the oppression of a worker somewhere else than you need to fix that dependency on the oppression of another worker somewhere else… that’s one step of many steps… true liberation will as you said only come for both workers if we abolish capitalist modes of production entirely… I’m not disagreeing… just pointing out some complexities and why they creat tension and lead to the fact that we reasonably can argue that we would need to fight on behalf of other fights such as anti-colonial struggles as well
I dont think you understand what communism is. I will once again ask you to read marx
I’m not an idiot… don’t treat me like I am… I have read excerpts of Marx… yes you might be more well-read than me… but don’t treat me like I’m an idiot… you have no right to simply brush me off by saying that I’m dumber or not as well-read.
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What? Like genuinely… that’s stupid… you can be working class and still work against your own class interests… like if you’re a Mexican American man who’s working two jobs but you still vote for Trump… aren’t you literally working against your own interests??? Like ofc that’s possible. Belonging to the proletariat doesn’t magically give you class consciousness.
Very fair point. Nationalism is dumb. I wanted to just point out the illegitimate nature of the existence of the zionist state…
Why is it confusing to you that an Israeli worker or settler has a very different relationship to empire and capital even if his relationship to the mode of production on paper is similar or the same as that of a a Palestinian worker and that an Israeli worker being a zionist means he’s working against the interests of the working class and participating in colonial oppression.
Like why don’t you get it that it’s more complicated than “selling labour or owning capital” because our understanding of Marxism shouldn’t end with Marx, that’s why people like Lenin and Mao expanded on these issues and explained them further… colonial dimensions, gender, and a lot more intersections aspects matter in class analysis… of course they do…
So it should be obvious that an Israeli worker is complicit in the oppression of Palestinians by literally stealing and occupying land even if he technically still sells his labour… his relationship to capital and empire is different in a way that is very much relevant for analysis.
Fair point. That was a little harshly worded on my end by I still think my point matters.
That’s not what I’m saying… you can be proletarian and still hit a cat… what I’m saying is that their interests Don’t align with the working class fully or regardless of particular differences… and often times they are fully working against the interests of the working class… because they are influenced by systems of oppression that they benefit from and therefore shape their interests… And influenced by bourgeois propaganda, in this case specifically fascist and ethno-nationalist propaganda and zionism…
You can be a worker and yes even though negotiating for a better wage with your capitalist boss is you fighting for the interest of your class, that doesn’t change the fact that there are intersectional differences… a black worker under apartheid and a white worker benefiting from apartheid are both workers…
And yet the white worker is one the one hand figting for his working class interests but limits that fight to his own race because he still benefits from apartheid oppression, socially and financially… making him complicit in bourgeois oppression because racism is defended ideologically but conducted economically… same for gender and other forms of oppression… and as long as that white worker doesn’t turn against these systems of oppression as well, he is complicit to some degree in bourgeois oppression and partly benefiting from it…
And if you take this to the extreme we end up with proletarian settlers who yes are proletariat but need to be held accountable to the fact that they are benefiting and actively participating in defending the interest of capital against another group within the proletariat from whoms exploitation they are benefiting.
That’s why the revolution needs to be international and abolish all classes, not just economic ones but also social ones.
Doesn’t make their actions okay… even if they mattered in achieving a goal. We still cannot simply apply a utilitarian calculus or trust me we will end up in morally horrific situations… we can’t justify radical soilders killing in the name of capital that somehow helped out in the proletarian revolution just because they helped out in the revolution.
Maybe I’m not getting your point here and misunderstanding what you meant by that.
That’s… that’s literally what I’m saying… just because you are working class doesn’t mean you are fighting for the working class… which is why we can very reasonably argue that Israeli workers are not fighting for the working class but rather through their zionism aligning with capital and empire and should be dealt with accordingly…
Yes but that means dismantling all class relations which means we need to take an intersectional approach and see that not everybody within the working class is the same and that among us are even those who are doing everything to uphold systems of oppression.
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Fair point but we can agree that it is far worse than most other nations out there…
Again I think his interest are gonna be to some degree different than that of the rest of the proletariat because he benefits from the oppression of certain groups within the proletariat which is why he is inhibited from sharing the interests of those groups within the proletariat because he would make a loss if he actually fought for their liberation as well…
It’s an economic question… if by supporting the proletariat in place B, you’re living standard in place A is gonna get worse… how many people would support the proletariat in place B, even if they do so in Place A… not many… especially if you’re ideologically compelled to despise place A and are literally engaging in genocidal violence against them because you benefit from the oppression on place A as a place B person.
Agreed but Israel is unique in the extent of its violence and that it is a genocidal and fascist settler colonial entity which many other nations are not… Israel isn’t comparable to a place like Madagascar or Algeria… saying otherwise is just a denial of reality at this point…
They do but also they have interests that don’t align with wider proletariat or interests that are opposed to the wider proletariat…
I don’t think you can have one without the other… both things need to be tackled simultaneously, one the one hand ideologically and on the other hand economically, i.e addressing the capitalist relations from which they are born…
How so? If you are a fascist who’s killing communists or anti-colonialists then yeah you’re an enemy of the movement… yes you could be made to change sides but for most people who are this deeply ideologically invested in capital, that isn’t possible… again for some people we have leaflets but for other people you need to have bullets to defend yourself and fight against them… like isn’t that obvious…
True… I should have made that more clear but yeah some of their interests done align with those of the wider proletariat because they benefit from the oppression of others parts of the proletariat and want to uphold that.
Ever heard of the PLPF which was the communist equivalent of the PLO… yeah no historically many Palestinian resistance fighters were marxist or maoists…
It can be that way but it doesn’t have to be that way and I think saying “well they are nationalists, so we shouldn’t support them” is stupid… and yeah some people who say they are communist do say that because they are retarded… one thing at a time… first national liberation… then class liberation… you can’t simply skip one step.
Really… I think that’s just defeatism…
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But it is one of the worst clearly…
Why… I just again am trying to point out the way global capitalism creates inter-dependencies on the oppression of other groups within the proletariat… how is that liberal thinking???
Fair point…
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But you cannot immediately dismantle capitalism… you need to first address these issues under capitalism and thereby weaken capitalist structures before you can dismantle capitalism
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Did you just delete your comment cause you kinda conceded the point or why?
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Oh okay…
Just because their interests allign with the proletariat doesn’t mean they aren’t working against them… and yes the vast majority of the proletariat does that all the time…
Guess what they don’t do…
Literally support and engage in fucking genocide and settler colonialism… like bro, what the fuck are you on… that difference fucking matters because it changes their relationship to capital and empire in a major way that makes them very different and opposed to the rest of the international proletariat and that matters.
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The mode of production isn’t the only thing that matters… because thats not the only thing that determines your relationship to capital. Yes they benefit from the oppression of others like the vast majority of the proletariat but the difference is that they are actively participating in that oppression and are ideologically alligned with it.
A European worker who isn’t even aware of where his clothes come from and is benefiting from Chinese sweatshops isn’t the same as a fucking IDF soilder… even though both benfit from forms of oppression, the Israeli soidlers direct involvement matters…
I never said they are a different class per se… all I said is that there direct involvement with capitalist oppression and benefit from it still matter and make a difference… an American worker who benefits from the exploitation of a southasian worker is different than that south asian worker… their position in relation to capital is different even if they both have both have the same relationship to the mode of production.
I don’t think their interest do actually align with that of the international proletariat… it does with their natioanl section or racial section of the proletariat… but not with every group within the proletariat… because justice for that southasian worker would mean a financial loss for the American worker and so of course the american worker has a vested interest in upholding the oppression of that southasian worker… and that interest is gonna be a lot greater in the case of settler colonialism where an israeli bread baker who benefits from stolen Palestinians crops of course is gonna have a different set of interests to some degree than than Palestinian farmer or baker… I don’t understand why you don’t understand that simple point.
And the thing is that this interest in upholding bourgeois oppression against another group within the proletariat is of course gonna be at its most extreme in the case of fascism, imperialism and colonialism…
I never said they aren’t part of the proletariat sub the proletariat isn’t one homogenous class… it’s a class with subsections that are divided by bourgeois propaganda and ideology and systesm of interdependence built on exploitation and colonialsation… that makes it so that these groups within the proletariat can have opposing interests for their specific group…
Thats why need to erase those differences such as nationalism or gender if we ever want the international proletariat to be united as one because it isn’t one… the proletariat isn’t one homogenous thing…
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I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that this is the only factor which determines your interests… I think that is too simplistic… I think your position within capitalist structures matters… because you can be oppressed in one way and still participate in oppression of others in other ways… that seems to be true to me…
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Seriously… all I was saying is that groups within the proletariat will have specific interests that clash with that of other groups within the proletariat due to burgeois systems that have created in some groups of the proletariat a dependency on the oppression of other parts of the proletariat… I’m literally just talking about the issues that arise from capitalist globalization and colonialism and imperialism…
And yes only an international revolution could fix that… I really don’t understand it… if you depend as a worker on the oppression of a worker somewhere else than you need to fix that dependency on the oppression of another worker somewhere else… that’s one step of many steps… true liberation will as you said only come for both workers if we abolish capitalist modes of production entirely… I’m not disagreeing… just pointing out some complexities and why they creat tension and lead to the fact that we reasonably can argue that we would need to fight on behalf of other fights such as anti-colonial struggles as well
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I’m not an idiot… don’t treat me like I am… I have read excerpts of Marx… yes you might be more well-read than me… but don’t treat me like I’m an idiot… you have no right to simply brush me off by saying that I’m dumber or not as well-read.
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