Yeah… they’re working against their intereststs… most of the proletariat does that all the time it doesn’t mean their interests dont allign with the rest of the proletariat
Just because their interests allign with the proletariat doesn’t mean they aren’t working against them… and yes the vast majority of the proletariat does that all the time…
Guess what they don’t do…
Literally support and engage in fucking genocide and settler colonialism… like bro, what the fuck are you on… that difference fucking matters because it changes their relationship to capital and empire in a major way that makes them very different and opposed to the rest of the international proletariat and that matters.
Their relationship with the mode of production is the same and therefore their interests are the same? Again them working against them is utterly meaningless in a world without any communist movement lmao, thats like half the planet it’s not unique to isreal.
The mode of production isn’t the only thing that matters… because thats not the only thing that determines your relationship to capital. Yes they benefit from the oppression of others like the vast majority of the proletariat but the difference is that they are actively participating in that oppression and are ideologically alligned with it.
A European worker who isn’t even aware of where his clothes come from and is benefiting from Chinese sweatshops isn’t the same as a fucking IDF soilder… even though both benfit from forms of oppression, the Israeli soidlers direct involvement matters…
but that doesn’t make them magically a different class with a different relationship to the mode of production
I never said they are a different class per se… all I said is that there direct involvement with capitalist oppression and benefit from it still matter and make a difference… an American worker who benefits from the exploitation of a southasian worker is different than that south asian worker… their position in relation to capital is different even if they both have both have the same relationship to the mode of production.
I don’t think their interest do actually align with that of the international proletariat… it does with their natioanl section or racial section of the proletariat… but not with every group within the proletariat… because justice for that southasian worker would mean a financial loss for the American worker and so of course the american worker has a vested interest in upholding the oppression of that southasian worker… and that interest is gonna be a lot greater in the case of settler colonialism where an israeli bread baker who benefits from stolen Palestinians crops of course is gonna have a different set of interests to some degree than than Palestinian farmer or baker… I don’t understand why you don’t understand that simple point.
And the thing is that this interest in upholding bourgeois oppression against another group within the proletariat is of course gonna be at its most extreme in the case of fascism, imperialism and colonialism…
I never said they aren’t part of the proletariat sub the proletariat isn’t one homogenous class… it’s a class with subsections that are divided by bourgeois propaganda and ideology and systesm of interdependence built on exploitation and colonialsation… that makes it so that these groups within the proletariat can have opposing interests for their specific group…
Thats why need to erase those differences such as nationalism or gender if we ever want the international proletariat to be united as one because it isn’t one… the proletariat isn’t one homogenous thing…
Interests come from your relationship with the mode of production. […] The interests of both groups would mean an end yo commodity production, the law of value, money etc entirely
I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that this is the only factor which determines your interests… I think that is too simplistic… I think your position within capitalist structures matters… because you can be oppressed in one way and still participate in oppression of others in other ways… that seems to be true to me…
Seriously… all I was saying is that groups within the proletariat will have specific interests that clash with that of other groups within the proletariat due to burgeois systems that have created in some groups of the proletariat a dependency on the oppression of other parts of the proletariat… I’m literally just talking about the issues that arise from capitalist globalization and colonialism and imperialism…
And yes only an international revolution could fix that… I really don’t understand it… if you depend as a worker on the oppression of a worker somewhere else than you need to fix that dependency on the oppression of another worker somewhere else… that’s one step of many steps… true liberation will as you said only come for both workers if we abolish capitalist modes of production entirely… I’m not disagreeing… just pointing out some complexities and why they creat tension and lead to the fact that we reasonably can argue that we would need to fight on behalf of other fights such as anti-colonial struggles as well
But that abolition is a final step… wouldn’t some inter-burgeois conflict as you call it be necessary first so soften some of those dependencies on the oppression of other countries by idk… creating either more fair relationships between countries or by creating more independence within a country and then shift more and more on a national level to communism before trying to make the revolution international…
I dont think you understand what communism is. I will once again ask you to read marx
I’m not an idiot… don’t treat me like I am… I have read excerpts of Marx… yes you might be more well-read than me… but don’t treat me like I’m an idiot… you have no right to simply brush me off by saying that I’m dumber or not as well-read.
Well… communism is a final step… before that you would first need to engage with interests related to money and finance and slowly start to dissolve them… you can’t just jump and arrive immediately into communism… that’s not possible… that’s why you also need a dictatorship of the proletariat, implying class still exists, before you arrive in a classless society.
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Did you just delete your comment cause you kinda conceded the point or why?
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Oh okay…
Just because their interests allign with the proletariat doesn’t mean they aren’t working against them… and yes the vast majority of the proletariat does that all the time…
Guess what they don’t do…
Literally support and engage in fucking genocide and settler colonialism… like bro, what the fuck are you on… that difference fucking matters because it changes their relationship to capital and empire in a major way that makes them very different and opposed to the rest of the international proletariat and that matters.
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The mode of production isn’t the only thing that matters… because thats not the only thing that determines your relationship to capital. Yes they benefit from the oppression of others like the vast majority of the proletariat but the difference is that they are actively participating in that oppression and are ideologically alligned with it.
A European worker who isn’t even aware of where his clothes come from and is benefiting from Chinese sweatshops isn’t the same as a fucking IDF soilder… even though both benfit from forms of oppression, the Israeli soidlers direct involvement matters…
I never said they are a different class per se… all I said is that there direct involvement with capitalist oppression and benefit from it still matter and make a difference… an American worker who benefits from the exploitation of a southasian worker is different than that south asian worker… their position in relation to capital is different even if they both have both have the same relationship to the mode of production.
I don’t think their interest do actually align with that of the international proletariat… it does with their natioanl section or racial section of the proletariat… but not with every group within the proletariat… because justice for that southasian worker would mean a financial loss for the American worker and so of course the american worker has a vested interest in upholding the oppression of that southasian worker… and that interest is gonna be a lot greater in the case of settler colonialism where an israeli bread baker who benefits from stolen Palestinians crops of course is gonna have a different set of interests to some degree than than Palestinian farmer or baker… I don’t understand why you don’t understand that simple point.
And the thing is that this interest in upholding bourgeois oppression against another group within the proletariat is of course gonna be at its most extreme in the case of fascism, imperialism and colonialism…
I never said they aren’t part of the proletariat sub the proletariat isn’t one homogenous class… it’s a class with subsections that are divided by bourgeois propaganda and ideology and systesm of interdependence built on exploitation and colonialsation… that makes it so that these groups within the proletariat can have opposing interests for their specific group…
Thats why need to erase those differences such as nationalism or gender if we ever want the international proletariat to be united as one because it isn’t one… the proletariat isn’t one homogenous thing…
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I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that this is the only factor which determines your interests… I think that is too simplistic… I think your position within capitalist structures matters… because you can be oppressed in one way and still participate in oppression of others in other ways… that seems to be true to me…
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Well but it does impact your interest as an individual or as a group of people…
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Seriously… all I was saying is that groups within the proletariat will have specific interests that clash with that of other groups within the proletariat due to burgeois systems that have created in some groups of the proletariat a dependency on the oppression of other parts of the proletariat… I’m literally just talking about the issues that arise from capitalist globalization and colonialism and imperialism…
And yes only an international revolution could fix that… I really don’t understand it… if you depend as a worker on the oppression of a worker somewhere else than you need to fix that dependency on the oppression of another worker somewhere else… that’s one step of many steps… true liberation will as you said only come for both workers if we abolish capitalist modes of production entirely… I’m not disagreeing… just pointing out some complexities and why they creat tension and lead to the fact that we reasonably can argue that we would need to fight on behalf of other fights such as anti-colonial struggles as well
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But that abolition is a final step… wouldn’t some inter-burgeois conflict as you call it be necessary first so soften some of those dependencies on the oppression of other countries by idk… creating either more fair relationships between countries or by creating more independence within a country and then shift more and more on a national level to communism before trying to make the revolution international…
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I’m not an idiot… don’t treat me like I am… I have read excerpts of Marx… yes you might be more well-read than me… but don’t treat me like I’m an idiot… you have no right to simply brush me off by saying that I’m dumber or not as well-read.
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Well… communism is a final step… before that you would first need to engage with interests related to money and finance and slowly start to dissolve them… you can’t just jump and arrive immediately into communism… that’s not possible… that’s why you also need a dictatorship of the proletariat, implying class still exists, before you arrive in a classless society.
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