Its about as legitimate as the rest of the States in the world
Fair point but we can agree that it is far worse than most other nations out there…
Again, working against his own interests, his class interests still align with the rest of the proletariat…
Again I think his interest are gonna be to some degree different than that of the rest of the proletariat because he benefits from the oppression of certain groups within the proletariat which is why he is inhibited from sharing the interests of those groups within the proletariat because he would make a loss if he actually fought for their liberation as well…
It’s an economic question… if by supporting the proletariat in place B, you’re living standard in place A is gonna get worse… how many people would support the proletariat in place B, even if they do so in Place A… not many… especially if you’re ideologically compelled to despise place A and are literally engaging in genocidal violence against them because you benefit from the oppression on place A as a place B person.
The actual awnser your looking for is thst revolutionary action is more likely to be taken by sections of the proletariat which face the oppression and contradictions of capital more, but that applies to minority groups and women in literally every country on the planet israel isn’t unique
Agreed but Israel is unique in the extent of its violence and that it is a genocidal and fascist settler colonial entity which many other nations are not… Israel isn’t comparable to a place like Madagascar or Algeria… saying otherwise is just a denial of reality at this point…
Either you think that the Israeli proletariat doesn’t have interests alligned eith the wide proletariat (wrong)
They do but also they have interests that don’t align with wider proletariat or interests that are opposed to the wider proletariat…
Social classes would wither away with the abolition of economic class thats kinda the point.
I don’t think you can have one without the other… both things need to be tackled simultaneously, one the one hand ideologically and on the other hand economically, i.e addressing the capitalist relations from which they are born…
I never said it did, the point was that just because a proletarian is “defending the interests of capital” (basically everyone does this but this is an extreme example) doesn’t mean that they’re enemies of the communist movement inherently
How so? If you are a fascist who’s killing communists or anti-colonialists then yeah you’re an enemy of the movement… yes you could be made to change sides but for most people who are this deeply ideologically invested in capital, that isn’t possible… again for some people we have leaflets but for other people you need to have bullets to defend yourself and fight against them… like isn’t that obvious…
No you keep on saying their interests dont allign which isn’t the same thing
True… I should have made that more clear but yeah some of their interests done align with those of the wider proletariat because they benefit from the oppression of others parts of the proletariat and want to uphold that.
Yes they’re not fighting for the working class… but neither are the Palestinians
Ever heard of the PLPF which was the communist equivalent of the PLO… yeah no historically many Palestinian resistance fighters were marxist or maoists…
That’s not to say I think Palestinians are wrong for resisting genocide of course they’re not but fundamentally their national liberation movement is a bourgois one
It can be that way but it doesn’t have to be that way and I think saying “well they are nationalists, so we shouldn’t support them” is stupid… and yeah some people who say they are communist do say that because they are retarded… one thing at a time… first national liberation… then class liberation… you can’t simply skip one step.
Also like again the number of people in the modern day who “fight for the working class” is basically 0
This is liberal thinking, no matter how many groups your benefited from the oppression of every single proletarian on the planet is still subject to the contradictions of capitalism, and therefore, has the same interests in overcoming them
Why… I just again am trying to point out the way global capitalism creates inter-dependencies on the oppression of other groups within the proletariat… how is that liberal thinking???
Replacing the Israeli bourgeoisie with a Palestinian bourgeoisie doesn’t change the class position of the Palestinian proletariat, and is literally nothing to do with proletarian revolution at all
But you cannot immediately dismantle capitalism… you need to first address these issues under capitalism and thereby weaken capitalist structures before you can dismantle capitalism
When did I cite Lenin… and why would he kill himself reading this might I ask…
And yes some characteristics are innate but you still weaken capitalist structures and establish alternative systems and shift from one to the other… but to do such radical changes… such shifts… and dismantle some aspects you need revolution… but you can’t get rid of all of capitalism and every social system that results from it by just doing a revolution… you need a lot of time for that… deepl social changes… probably generations of people being brought up under completely new ideas of how the world is supposed to work… like of course this is a process…
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Fair point but we can agree that it is far worse than most other nations out there…
Again I think his interest are gonna be to some degree different than that of the rest of the proletariat because he benefits from the oppression of certain groups within the proletariat which is why he is inhibited from sharing the interests of those groups within the proletariat because he would make a loss if he actually fought for their liberation as well…
It’s an economic question… if by supporting the proletariat in place B, you’re living standard in place A is gonna get worse… how many people would support the proletariat in place B, even if they do so in Place A… not many… especially if you’re ideologically compelled to despise place A and are literally engaging in genocidal violence against them because you benefit from the oppression on place A as a place B person.
Agreed but Israel is unique in the extent of its violence and that it is a genocidal and fascist settler colonial entity which many other nations are not… Israel isn’t comparable to a place like Madagascar or Algeria… saying otherwise is just a denial of reality at this point…
They do but also they have interests that don’t align with wider proletariat or interests that are opposed to the wider proletariat…
I don’t think you can have one without the other… both things need to be tackled simultaneously, one the one hand ideologically and on the other hand economically, i.e addressing the capitalist relations from which they are born…
How so? If you are a fascist who’s killing communists or anti-colonialists then yeah you’re an enemy of the movement… yes you could be made to change sides but for most people who are this deeply ideologically invested in capital, that isn’t possible… again for some people we have leaflets but for other people you need to have bullets to defend yourself and fight against them… like isn’t that obvious…
True… I should have made that more clear but yeah some of their interests done align with those of the wider proletariat because they benefit from the oppression of others parts of the proletariat and want to uphold that.
Ever heard of the PLPF which was the communist equivalent of the PLO… yeah no historically many Palestinian resistance fighters were marxist or maoists…
It can be that way but it doesn’t have to be that way and I think saying “well they are nationalists, so we shouldn’t support them” is stupid… and yeah some people who say they are communist do say that because they are retarded… one thing at a time… first national liberation… then class liberation… you can’t simply skip one step.
Really… I think that’s just defeatism…
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But it is one of the worst clearly…
Why… I just again am trying to point out the way global capitalism creates inter-dependencies on the oppression of other groups within the proletariat… how is that liberal thinking???
Fair point…
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But you cannot immediately dismantle capitalism… you need to first address these issues under capitalism and thereby weaken capitalist structures before you can dismantle capitalism
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When did I cite Lenin… and why would he kill himself reading this might I ask…
And yes some characteristics are innate but you still weaken capitalist structures and establish alternative systems and shift from one to the other… but to do such radical changes… such shifts… and dismantle some aspects you need revolution… but you can’t get rid of all of capitalism and every social system that results from it by just doing a revolution… you need a lot of time for that… deepl social changes… probably generations of people being brought up under completely new ideas of how the world is supposed to work… like of course this is a process…
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