But have you thought of the baby killer idf recruit israeli worker that is literally the same as a palestinian mom of 5 getting airstriked everyday? They should unite and overthrow the bourgeoise and israelis will accept becoming instantly poorer and worse off because they arent enslaving palestinians anymore under an apartheid colonial regime loool
I never said that they aren’t technically proletariat but their are factors to consider when it comes to their relation to production and systems of extraction and oppression…
Were the american pioneers who genocided the native Americans also proletarians… what about white workers in apartheid south Africa… heck what about German workers during the Nazi regime… here’s the thing… yeah they do count as part of the proletariat but that doesn’t change their involvement and support for oppression and genocide and for fucks sake, how are you calling zionist settlers who literally disposess and steal land, thereby owning land, and then on top those in Israeli territory who employ Palestinians from the west bank for a slave wage, how do you call them proletarian in any meaningful fucking way…
A German nazi household who rented a jew from a force labour camp as a house maid (as they historically fucking did) was still a household where the father went and sold his labour… doesn’t change the fact that they essentially engaged in fucking slavery… proletariat isn’t a moral category… that’s right.
But to lump everybody into the category of proletarian equally while ignoring these major fucking issues of oppression that defineltly show that these people engage or at least benefit from labour extractive practices the same or at least similar way that the bourgeois do… that’s just fucking stupid…
And it doesn’t change the fact that the alignment with the spirit of the proletariat is more relevant than the mere fact of selling one’s labor… if you work for and benefit from bourgeois interests, even if just indirectly through colonial extraction done by your government or the cooperation that you sell your labour too, that still makes you very much morally complicit to some degrees… same is true for European proletarians who benefit from the first world extracting resources from the third world… but It’s an issue of degree… and if you literally employ slaves, use force labour, support apartheid or engage in genocide against indigenous populations or are a Fascist, then I think the fact that you are literally working to defend the interest of capital in the most aggressive way possible takes precedent over the fact that you also sell your labour…
When the soviets fought the nazi germans, they weren’t lamenting the fact that they were killing other working class people, they were thinking about the fact that they are fighting fascists…
And the same is true for apartheid, occupation, colonialism, imperialism and genocide…
I’m not gonna say “oh look at the poor American or Israeli soilder whos gleefully killing children… he’s also selling his labour, he’s one of us” because that’s fucking retarded… I’m gonna be thinking and saying “that person is a fascists working for empire in the interest of capital”… because that is the honest answer about their relation to capital
Of course again morally it’s a issue of degree and difference. An American adult isn’t the same as a child. A civilian not the same as a soilder, a worker not the same as capitalist but that doesn’t change the fact that they all benefit from the imperialist and fascist system they live under and they also largely support
What. They’re inventing whole new levels of idealism with this one. When the proletariat does something bad they’re still very much proletarian lmao, again its not a moral caragory even if that upsets you. Do you actually like, understand Marxist class analysis?
a) maybe my language was a bit flowery… what I meant by spirit of the proletariat, I don’t even remember writing it like that, was aligning with the interests of the international proletariat… and if they act against the interest of the international proletariat that doesn’t make them not proletarian but it makes them an enemy of the cause because they are literally fighting on behalf of capital.
These are obviously bourgeois? just as there is Palestinians bourgeoisie as well? Neither country is entirely one single class are you retardrd
b) Israeli is not a country, its an imperialist outpost for the American empire and a colonial settler ethno-state… yes there are Palestinian bourgeois but that doesn’t change the fact that they still suffer from colonization and occupation… also I never said that each group is one class, all I said was that they have different relationship to capital from a perspective of colonization and labou extraction…
c) You say they are obviously bourgeois but again if you look at the German example of the working household with a Jewish maid from a force labour camp, they are obviously also still working class because they are still selling their labour at one point or another…
The soviets were a capitalist state by the time of ww2
d) that’s an issue of history… I was talking about the principle… somebody fighting against a Fascist State employing working class men as soilders isn’t gonna think and shouldnt think about the fact that they are working class men foremost but rather about the fact that they are fighting against a Fascist state… death and war is always a tragedy nonetheless but don’t pretend these two working class men are standing on equal footing if one of them is a Fascist from conviction and the other is not…
As much as I loathe them they are “one of us” in that I share a class with them, class isn’t a moral category… stop thinking of it as a moral category
e) it isn’t about morality… it’s about in what interest you are employing your labour… if you’re selling your labour to defend capital then you are still complicit in capitalist oppression… a police officer or soilder is still selling their labour but that doesn’t change the fact that they are acting on behalf of capital and thereby are an enemy to the proletarian cause and should be treated as such as long as they stat complicit in capitalist violence against the working class, because when the working class acts against their own interests, there are different levels of approaching it, one would be education and recruitment and even support, but the moment we reach people who are literally killing for empire and capital en mass, then giving them a book or leaflet is not gonna work and they need to be treated as what they are: fascists…
Thats also not rlly what oop said she literally called for the ethnic cleansing of all those not tied to the land by blood lmao
I didn’t see Ababail taking about that and even if he did, it is reasonable to expect a lot of reparations and that at one point certain people would need to leave… if you’re family lived there for two/three generations as an Israeli then yes your grandpa and father and maybe even you were participating in oppression against Palestinians… but you should be treated differently than somebody who’s an American jew who’s been living there for 5 years or came with the expressed purpose of fighting for the IDF… the issue or complicity is sadly so far reaching in Israel that an approach such as in South Africa would probably fail and even an approach such as in nazi Germany has been shown to not have been fully effective considering the state of Germany today… so the question of how to resolve this issue is very complicated… neither simply kicking out every Israeli is gonna work nor simply ignoring everything that has happened is gonna work… and the same is true, though very reasonably so tona lesser degree, for the Palestinian side of the issue…
Even the proletariat who do morally bad things align with the interests of the international proletariat that’s how class works
What? Like genuinely… that’s stupid… you can be working class and still work against your own class interests… like if you’re a Mexican American man who’s working two jobs but you still vote for Trump… aren’t you literally working against your own interests??? Like ofc that’s possible. Belonging to the proletariat doesn’t magically give you class consciousness.
No country is a “real country” the entire concept of a national community is bourgeois fiction.
Very fair point. Nationalism is dumb. I wanted to just point out the illegitimate nature of the existence of the zionist state…
Class isn’t defined by the number row good/bad thigns you do its defined by your relationship with the mode of production… why is this confusing to you
Why is it confusing to you that an Israeli worker or settler has a very different relationship to empire and capital even if his relationship to the mode of production on paper is similar or the same as that of a a Palestinian worker and that an Israeli worker being a zionist means he’s working against the interests of the working class and participating in colonial oppression.
Like why don’t you get it that it’s more complicated than “selling labour or owning capital” because our understanding of Marxism shouldn’t end with Marx, that’s why people like Lenin and Mao expanded on these issues and explained them further… colonial dimensions, gender, and a lot more intersections aspects matter in class analysis… of course they do…
So it should be obvious that an Israeli worker is complicit in the oppression of Palestinians by literally stealing and occupying land even if he technically still sells his labour… his relationship to capital and empire is different in a way that is very much relevant for analysis.
Thats how i think about all people… im a marxist.
Fair point. That was a little harshly worded on my end by I still think my point matters.
You can be proletarian and have interests alligned with the proletariat and do bad things
That’s not what I’m saying… you can be proletarian and still hit a cat… what I’m saying is that their interests Don’t align with the working class fully or regardless of particular differences… and often times they are fully working against the interests of the working class… because they are influenced by systems of oppression that they benefit from and therefore shape their interests… And influenced by bourgeois propaganda, in this case specifically fascist and ethno-nationalist propaganda and zionism…
You can be a worker and yes even though negotiating for a better wage with your capitalist boss is you fighting for the interest of your class, that doesn’t change the fact that there are intersectional differences… a black worker under apartheid and a white worker benefiting from apartheid are both workers…
And yet the white worker is one the one hand figting for his working class interests but limits that fight to his own race because he still benefits from apartheid oppression, socially and financially… making him complicit in bourgeois oppression because racism is defended ideologically but conducted economically… same for gender and other forms of oppression… and as long as that white worker doesn’t turn against these systems of oppression as well, he is complicit to some degree in bourgeois oppression and partly benefiting from it…
And if you take this to the extreme we end up with proletarian settlers who yes are proletariat but need to be held accountable to the fact that they are benefiting and actively participating in defending the interest of capital against another group within the proletariat from whoms exploitation they are benefiting.
That’s why the revolution needs to be international and abolish all classes, not just economic ones but also social ones.
Hell the russian army in ww1 did horrible attrocoties and yet radical soldiers were still crucial for the bolsheviks to take power
Doesn’t make their actions okay… even if they mattered in achieving a goal. We still cannot simply apply a utilitarian calculus or trust me we will end up in morally horrific situations… we can’t justify radical soilders killing in the name of capital that somehow helped out in the proletarian revolution just because they helped out in the revolution.
Maybe I’m not getting your point here and misunderstanding what you meant by that.
Interests are tied to class, just because someone does something doesn’t inherently mean its in their class interests?
That’s… that’s literally what I’m saying… just because you are working class doesn’t mean you are fighting for the working class… which is why we can very reasonably argue that Israeli workers are not fighting for the working class but rather through their zionism aligning with capital and empire and should be dealt with accordingly…
There is literally no way possible to deal with or resolve imperialism or fascism or racism other then proletarian revolution. You cant destroy those things without destroying the material base theh stem from
Yes but that means dismantling all class relations which means we need to take an intersectional approach and see that not everybody within the working class is the same and that among us are even those who are doing everything to uphold systems of oppression.
Sorry… I was so involved in our conversation… I literally forgot the title… yeah it’s an exaggerated expression of frustration, maybe a genuinely held belief but I think it’s more of an overcorrection than a mistake…
I explained why I think the issue is more complicated and why the approach would to be very well thought out and is not something I somehow have a perfect solution for, sitting in my drawer… this would need the brain power of probably hundreds of people to think about and solve but well… that’s kind of an idealist view of looking at it considering the material reality on the ground right now…
What the fuck is wrong with you all… Ababil is right
But have you thought of the baby killer idf recruit israeli worker that is literally the same as a palestinian mom of 5 getting airstriked everyday? They should unite and overthrow the bourgeoise and israelis will accept becoming instantly poorer and worse off because they arent enslaving palestinians anymore under an apartheid colonial regime loool
It’s so funny comparing colonial settles to the fucking working class indigenous proletariat… some people are braindead ngl
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I never said that they aren’t technically proletariat but their are factors to consider when it comes to their relation to production and systems of extraction and oppression…
Were the american pioneers who genocided the native Americans also proletarians… what about white workers in apartheid south Africa… heck what about German workers during the Nazi regime… here’s the thing… yeah they do count as part of the proletariat but that doesn’t change their involvement and support for oppression and genocide and for fucks sake, how are you calling zionist settlers who literally disposess and steal land, thereby owning land, and then on top those in Israeli territory who employ Palestinians from the west bank for a slave wage, how do you call them proletarian in any meaningful fucking way…
A German nazi household who rented a jew from a force labour camp as a house maid (as they historically fucking did) was still a household where the father went and sold his labour… doesn’t change the fact that they essentially engaged in fucking slavery… proletariat isn’t a moral category… that’s right.
But to lump everybody into the category of proletarian equally while ignoring these major fucking issues of oppression that defineltly show that these people engage or at least benefit from labour extractive practices the same or at least similar way that the bourgeois do… that’s just fucking stupid…
And it doesn’t change the fact that the alignment with the spirit of the proletariat is more relevant than the mere fact of selling one’s labor… if you work for and benefit from bourgeois interests, even if just indirectly through colonial extraction done by your government or the cooperation that you sell your labour too, that still makes you very much morally complicit to some degrees… same is true for European proletarians who benefit from the first world extracting resources from the third world… but It’s an issue of degree… and if you literally employ slaves, use force labour, support apartheid or engage in genocide against indigenous populations or are a Fascist, then I think the fact that you are literally working to defend the interest of capital in the most aggressive way possible takes precedent over the fact that you also sell your labour…
When the soviets fought the nazi germans, they weren’t lamenting the fact that they were killing other working class people, they were thinking about the fact that they are fighting fascists…
And the same is true for apartheid, occupation, colonialism, imperialism and genocide…
I’m not gonna say “oh look at the poor American or Israeli soilder whos gleefully killing children… he’s also selling his labour, he’s one of us” because that’s fucking retarded… I’m gonna be thinking and saying “that person is a fascists working for empire in the interest of capital”… because that is the honest answer about their relation to capital
Of course again morally it’s a issue of degree and difference. An American adult isn’t the same as a child. A civilian not the same as a soilder, a worker not the same as capitalist but that doesn’t change the fact that they all benefit from the imperialist and fascist system they live under and they also largely support
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a) maybe my language was a bit flowery… what I meant by spirit of the proletariat, I don’t even remember writing it like that, was aligning with the interests of the international proletariat… and if they act against the interest of the international proletariat that doesn’t make them not proletarian but it makes them an enemy of the cause because they are literally fighting on behalf of capital.
b) Israeli is not a country, its an imperialist outpost for the American empire and a colonial settler ethno-state… yes there are Palestinian bourgeois but that doesn’t change the fact that they still suffer from colonization and occupation… also I never said that each group is one class, all I said was that they have different relationship to capital from a perspective of colonization and labou extraction…
c) You say they are obviously bourgeois but again if you look at the German example of the working household with a Jewish maid from a force labour camp, they are obviously also still working class because they are still selling their labour at one point or another…
d) that’s an issue of history… I was talking about the principle… somebody fighting against a Fascist State employing working class men as soilders isn’t gonna think and shouldnt think about the fact that they are working class men foremost but rather about the fact that they are fighting against a Fascist state… death and war is always a tragedy nonetheless but don’t pretend these two working class men are standing on equal footing if one of them is a Fascist from conviction and the other is not…
e) it isn’t about morality… it’s about in what interest you are employing your labour… if you’re selling your labour to defend capital then you are still complicit in capitalist oppression… a police officer or soilder is still selling their labour but that doesn’t change the fact that they are acting on behalf of capital and thereby are an enemy to the proletarian cause and should be treated as such as long as they stat complicit in capitalist violence against the working class, because when the working class acts against their own interests, there are different levels of approaching it, one would be education and recruitment and even support, but the moment we reach people who are literally killing for empire and capital en mass, then giving them a book or leaflet is not gonna work and they need to be treated as what they are: fascists…
I didn’t see Ababail taking about that and even if he did, it is reasonable to expect a lot of reparations and that at one point certain people would need to leave… if you’re family lived there for two/three generations as an Israeli then yes your grandpa and father and maybe even you were participating in oppression against Palestinians… but you should be treated differently than somebody who’s an American jew who’s been living there for 5 years or came with the expressed purpose of fighting for the IDF… the issue or complicity is sadly so far reaching in Israel that an approach such as in South Africa would probably fail and even an approach such as in nazi Germany has been shown to not have been fully effective considering the state of Germany today… so the question of how to resolve this issue is very complicated… neither simply kicking out every Israeli is gonna work nor simply ignoring everything that has happened is gonna work… and the same is true, though very reasonably so tona lesser degree, for the Palestinian side of the issue…
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What? Like genuinely… that’s stupid… you can be working class and still work against your own class interests… like if you’re a Mexican American man who’s working two jobs but you still vote for Trump… aren’t you literally working against your own interests??? Like ofc that’s possible. Belonging to the proletariat doesn’t magically give you class consciousness.
Very fair point. Nationalism is dumb. I wanted to just point out the illegitimate nature of the existence of the zionist state…
Why is it confusing to you that an Israeli worker or settler has a very different relationship to empire and capital even if his relationship to the mode of production on paper is similar or the same as that of a a Palestinian worker and that an Israeli worker being a zionist means he’s working against the interests of the working class and participating in colonial oppression.
Like why don’t you get it that it’s more complicated than “selling labour or owning capital” because our understanding of Marxism shouldn’t end with Marx, that’s why people like Lenin and Mao expanded on these issues and explained them further… colonial dimensions, gender, and a lot more intersections aspects matter in class analysis… of course they do…
So it should be obvious that an Israeli worker is complicit in the oppression of Palestinians by literally stealing and occupying land even if he technically still sells his labour… his relationship to capital and empire is different in a way that is very much relevant for analysis.
Fair point. That was a little harshly worded on my end by I still think my point matters.
That’s not what I’m saying… you can be proletarian and still hit a cat… what I’m saying is that their interests Don’t align with the working class fully or regardless of particular differences… and often times they are fully working against the interests of the working class… because they are influenced by systems of oppression that they benefit from and therefore shape their interests… And influenced by bourgeois propaganda, in this case specifically fascist and ethno-nationalist propaganda and zionism…
You can be a worker and yes even though negotiating for a better wage with your capitalist boss is you fighting for the interest of your class, that doesn’t change the fact that there are intersectional differences… a black worker under apartheid and a white worker benefiting from apartheid are both workers…
And yet the white worker is one the one hand figting for his working class interests but limits that fight to his own race because he still benefits from apartheid oppression, socially and financially… making him complicit in bourgeois oppression because racism is defended ideologically but conducted economically… same for gender and other forms of oppression… and as long as that white worker doesn’t turn against these systems of oppression as well, he is complicit to some degree in bourgeois oppression and partly benefiting from it…
And if you take this to the extreme we end up with proletarian settlers who yes are proletariat but need to be held accountable to the fact that they are benefiting and actively participating in defending the interest of capital against another group within the proletariat from whoms exploitation they are benefiting.
That’s why the revolution needs to be international and abolish all classes, not just economic ones but also social ones.
Doesn’t make their actions okay… even if they mattered in achieving a goal. We still cannot simply apply a utilitarian calculus or trust me we will end up in morally horrific situations… we can’t justify radical soilders killing in the name of capital that somehow helped out in the proletarian revolution just because they helped out in the revolution.
Maybe I’m not getting your point here and misunderstanding what you meant by that.
That’s… that’s literally what I’m saying… just because you are working class doesn’t mean you are fighting for the working class… which is why we can very reasonably argue that Israeli workers are not fighting for the working class but rather through their zionism aligning with capital and empire and should be dealt with accordingly…
Yes but that means dismantling all class relations which means we need to take an intersectional approach and see that not everybody within the working class is the same and that among us are even those who are doing everything to uphold systems of oppression.
>I didn’t see Ababail taking about that
what? the title of this post is literally
“Israel shouldn’t exist and it’s colonists should be expelled to the countries they came from originally, with or without force”
Sorry… I was so involved in our conversation… I literally forgot the title… yeah it’s an exaggerated expression of frustration, maybe a genuinely held belief but I think it’s more of an overcorrection than a mistake…
I explained why I think the issue is more complicated and why the approach would to be very well thought out and is not something I somehow have a perfect solution for, sitting in my drawer… this would need the brain power of probably hundreds of people to think about and solve but well… that’s kind of an idealist view of looking at it considering the material reality on the ground right now…