Sorry… I was so involved in our conversation… I literally forgot the title… yeah it’s an exaggerated expression of frustration, maybe a genuinely held belief but I think it’s more of an overcorrection than a mistake…
I explained why I think the issue is more complicated and why the approach would to be very well thought out and is not something I somehow have a perfect solution for, sitting in my drawer… this would need the brain power of probably hundreds of people to think about and solve but well… that’s kind of an idealist view of looking at it considering the material reality on the ground right now…
i just want someone to tell me how israel is so different from the us or any other colonial state like brazil, mexico, canada, australia, etc. why arent we calling for colonist to be expelled from those places?
people say its because it isnt feasible but then neither is expelling 7 million jewish israelis. especially when a large number of them are or are descendants of arab jews who were expelled from surrounding countries and have no where to go. israel is almost a century old. the people living there are not going anywhere without the use of brutal force that will lead to the deaths and suffering of millions that would make the dissolution of yugoslavia look like a walk in the park.
I think the difference is the fact they are still actively engaging in the extermination of the indigenous population… that their colonial project isn’t finished yet and so still can be fought against which isn’t feasible in the case of the US… an ongoing anti-colonial struggle shouldn’t be dismissed just due to the succes of other atrocious colonial projects that destroyed any realistic opportunity for resistance… though yes we should have repartion or reparations or other measures for the native Americans for example and have that discussion… but that right now is not as important as preventing the completion of another colonial project…
Also I agree that simply expelling everybody isn’t a solution and wouldn’t work and that resolving the issue would need a very complicated and well thought out approach… but it would defineltly need decolonisation to some degree… would require dezionisation, demilitarisation, reparations, and so so so much more…
I hate this cop out so much. the indigenous americans arent wiped out. why are we giving up on them? theres millions left. especially in latin american countries.
yall cant keep saying their genocide is “over” when state violence is continued against indigenous communities to this day. its so fucked up
That’s a good point… but I think the issue is that in the case of the indigenous native Americans we really don’t have a movement with any feasible change chance of overthrowing their oppressors and colonizers…
But you’re right, saying “well they are all already dead anyway” is not okay and fucked up…
okay, and again i ask how its anymore feasible in israel? anything that’s materially possible in israel is just as difficult ro achieve as land back movements in the US, which do exist and have ways you can support them even if there isnt an active armed struggle.
i have not been trying to say i support israel this whole argument with you and others. israel should have never existed, it is a bourgeois ethno state. but its abolition, if it were to happen, would not, and should not lead to the ethnic cleansing of millions of people. and if you believe it should (not saying you specifically do) then you must also grapple with the fact that to hold a consistent world view it must also be applied to other colonial states, chief among them the US.
but everyone who claims to care about land rights by blood and what not keeps making the same excuses that colonial states do to justify why they dont need to hold their views consistently. because those genocides are “over”, when they very much are not.
I do agree that painting the native American issue as “history” conceals the fact that these genocides are to some degree still ongoing… but again I think you’ve pointed out yourself that there is no armed struggle… that’s why I say that it’s not as feasible in the US…
but you still have not given me any reason as to how its anymore feasible in israel. what do you do with the 7 million jewish israelis who live there? like seriously
Okay well this isn’t a perfect plan but this is a number of things we could and should do and that could help us with this specific case:
Dezionisation (no Persilscheine this time)
Nurnberg style trials for zionist state officials, The Likud, IDF generals, diplomats, the “cultural” office, mossad, important zionist personalities and organisations in israel or abroad, who have engaged in avocating for genocide and zionism
.
Trials for involvement in radical zionist or radical ethno-nationalist groups such as religious extremist organisations and militas…
.
Signing of universal civil and human rights under the jurisdiction of the internal courts
.
Baning of all zionist organisations and all radical ethno-nationalist organisations, including Palestinian ethno-nationalist organisations…
.
Baning of subversive material and symbols and propaganda organisations and implant extreme hate speech laws and anti violence and anti discrimination laws for all groups
.
Intense and permanent public re-education campaigns and revision of school curricular to ensure an appropriate pedagogy of children
.
Involve especially young children in the new generation in intense youth group activities with mixed participation of Palestinians and Israelis with trained personal with no biases and instal in them unifying thought to thwart the influence of parents with zionist or antisemtic views
.
Democratization
Rewrite the law to protect every group by giving everyone equal civil and human rights
.
Prevent garymandering with laws and use a dual vote system to ensure equal representation
.
Disallow political parties to operate along ethnic or religious lines to prevent tensions
.
Ensure equal participation in public spaces and private enterprise for Palestinians and Israelis via oversight boards and quotas
.
Equal access to school and university and no more separation for arab and Israeli children
.
Try preventing and softening up ghettoisation of groups into different quarters with new zoning laws to ensure more mixed and shares spaces
.
One territory, one citizenship, one passport, new documents for everybody, maybe at most a marker in one’s ID signaling if you are Israeli or Palestinian, essentially a Dual-Nation model
.
Resecularisation to ensure less religious and ethnic tensions, including no third temple
.
Make Hebrew and Palestinian both the official state language, teach both and encourage dialog to build linguistic bridges over time
.
Rename the country something neutral
.
Decolonisation (in disputed territories)
removal of settlers on occupied lands in the West Bank according to 1967 boarders
.
denaturalisation of Israeli citenzs who have not lived there for more than three generations or since before the establishment of the “right of return” in 1950 (this is a rather smal number)
.
Recent Israeli immigrants with dual citizenship or who lived in Israel for less than 30 years have to leave and go back to their country of origin
.
Right of return for Palestinians up to the third generation fo a duration of approxim. 30 years
.
Renaming places to bear their historic name
.
Demilitarisation (to prevent future conlict)
No right to bear arms for any citizens and very strong anti gun laws, no import, export, production or selling, no smuggling etc.
.
Demilitarisation of police force and very little involvement of police in public life and equal quota for Palestinians and Israeli, no access to heavy weaponry, extreme background checks
.
Dismantling of the military apparatus, all nuclear arsenal and foreign military bases aborad and in the territory itself
.
Dismantling of the surveillance apparatus and usage of surveillance only strong anti terrorism measures according to laws of transparency
.
Permanent intense UN peace mission and dismantling of any military industry to prevent any form of possible weapons production
.
This is the stuff that would come to mind… for me personally this is how it would have to be done and I think that is still a lot more feasible in an on going conflict that could maybe maybe still turn out in favor of the indigenous people.
Sorry… I was so involved in our conversation… I literally forgot the title… yeah it’s an exaggerated expression of frustration, maybe a genuinely held belief but I think it’s more of an overcorrection than a mistake…
I explained why I think the issue is more complicated and why the approach would to be very well thought out and is not something I somehow have a perfect solution for, sitting in my drawer… this would need the brain power of probably hundreds of people to think about and solve but well… that’s kind of an idealist view of looking at it considering the material reality on the ground right now…
i just want someone to tell me how israel is so different from the us or any other colonial state like brazil, mexico, canada, australia, etc. why arent we calling for colonist to be expelled from those places?
people say its because it isnt feasible but then neither is expelling 7 million jewish israelis. especially when a large number of them are or are descendants of arab jews who were expelled from surrounding countries and have no where to go. israel is almost a century old. the people living there are not going anywhere without the use of brutal force that will lead to the deaths and suffering of millions that would make the dissolution of yugoslavia look like a walk in the park.
I think the difference is the fact they are still actively engaging in the extermination of the indigenous population… that their colonial project isn’t finished yet and so still can be fought against which isn’t feasible in the case of the US… an ongoing anti-colonial struggle shouldn’t be dismissed just due to the succes of other atrocious colonial projects that destroyed any realistic opportunity for resistance… though yes we should have repartion or reparations or other measures for the native Americans for example and have that discussion… but that right now is not as important as preventing the completion of another colonial project…
Also I agree that simply expelling everybody isn’t a solution and wouldn’t work and that resolving the issue would need a very complicated and well thought out approach… but it would defineltly need decolonisation to some degree… would require dezionisation, demilitarisation, reparations, and so so so much more…
I hate this cop out so much. the indigenous americans arent wiped out. why are we giving up on them? theres millions left. especially in latin american countries.
yall cant keep saying their genocide is “over” when state violence is continued against indigenous communities to this day. its so fucked up
That’s a good point… but I think the issue is that in the case of the indigenous native Americans we really don’t have a movement with any feasible change chance of overthrowing their oppressors and colonizers…
But you’re right, saying “well they are all already dead anyway” is not okay and fucked up…
okay, and again i ask how its anymore feasible in israel? anything that’s materially possible in israel is just as difficult ro achieve as land back movements in the US, which do exist and have ways you can support them even if there isnt an active armed struggle.
i have not been trying to say i support israel this whole argument with you and others. israel should have never existed, it is a bourgeois ethno state. but its abolition, if it were to happen, would not, and should not lead to the ethnic cleansing of millions of people. and if you believe it should (not saying you specifically do) then you must also grapple with the fact that to hold a consistent world view it must also be applied to other colonial states, chief among them the US.
but everyone who claims to care about land rights by blood and what not keeps making the same excuses that colonial states do to justify why they dont need to hold their views consistently. because those genocides are “over”, when they very much are not.
I think you answered your own question
I do agree that painting the native American issue as “history” conceals the fact that these genocides are to some degree still ongoing… but again I think you’ve pointed out yourself that there is no armed struggle… that’s why I say that it’s not as feasible in the US…
but you still have not given me any reason as to how its anymore feasible in israel. what do you do with the 7 million jewish israelis who live there? like seriously
Okay well this isn’t a perfect plan but this is a number of things we could and should do and that could help us with this specific case:
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This is the stuff that would come to mind… for me personally this is how it would have to be done and I think that is still a lot more feasible in an on going conflict that could maybe maybe still turn out in favor of the indigenous people.