Also dismantling relations of production isn’t gonna be that easy… you’re talking about a global structure with literally billions of parts… this machine can’t just be reassembled that easily especially when things such as “humans are inherently greedy” is an idea produced in almost everybody around the world that results from capitalist relations and would reproduce them instantly if we don’t accompany a reorganization of production with a reorganization of society wide pedagogy and culture as well…
during a revolution it would literally not be hard to stop affirming capitalist relations of production
Because breaking down everything and trying to built from scratch wouldn’t work because we can’t just stop global food trade… like… you say it’s all so easy but during that revolution you would need to garauntee that the world doesn’t literally go up in flames… like I really don’t understand how you imagine this mythical revolution will go… we do a revolution and then…? What then? Do you have a system in place to replace capitalism? How will things work? You just say it would be easy to stop affirming capitalist relations… ah yes because suddenly all 8 Billion people will understand Marxism perfectly and be all perfectly class conscious and not at all influenced by living under capitalism for generations… as if they wouldn’t immediately reproduce capitalist relations because it’s the only thing they know
reorganising production to not affirm wage labour and commodity production has literally nothing to do with the physical transfer of food from one place to another.
Yes but you can’t do that in a day or even a year or even 10 years… this would be a huge and frankly herculean endeavor that would require planning and changing things on a scale that has probably never been done before ever in the history of the world… and taking about it as if it’s that simple is silly… and if suddenly everybody would just say… nope no more capitalism, then we would again still need to solve that many problems and that wouldn’t just work without any planning before the revolution… the idea that we can just somehow change the way the entire world functions seems a lot more idealist to me than to acknowledge the material reality of the complexity of the modern world…
“communism is not a state of affairs to be established nor is it a set of policies to be implemented. its the real movement towards the abolition of the present state of things” - Marx
Okay… yeah… but that doesn’t answer questions such as how will you make sure everybody has enough to eat and drink after the revolution and that on an international level!!
You can’t just believe in a perfect post revolution world that will suddenly manifst out of thin air. That’s quite frankly abusrd, isn’t it???
class conciousness arises spontaniously during times of crisis it isnt “built” over time.
That’s… I mean come on, you can’t believe that… then let’s just lay back and wait for capitalism to collapse and then sing kumbaya together… like of course we need to work towards class consciousness and cultivate it within people…
well no because theyd organise production according to need and abolish labour, because during times of crisis the proletariat develops class conciousness due to their position in relation to the mode of production
You can’t seriously believe that people when shit gets bad enough will just “wake up” and realize that capitalism is le bad and suddenly change the world by magically reorganising according to everybody’s needs and abilities…
That’s quite literally just magical thinking… That’s not how society works, it’s unrealistic.
You really think planned economy is feasible on a national or even international level… besides… to list a few things… we did a revolution, nice… what do we do now hmm… idk… organizing shipping, supply chains, production, distribution, education, health care, housing, agriculture, administration, transportation, electricity, laws, social relations that remain after the revolution… you really think all that will just magically sort itself out somehow… seriously?
You’re saying that all this wouldn’t require planning… you think that when shit gets bad enough, suddenly 8 Billion people will all agree on one thing and suddenly will all look out for each other and somehow organize in a perfect communist way simultaneously and all simply spontaniously and that everybody on earth will be cared for… because le revolution fixed everything all of a sudden now…
Thats… I don’t believe any serious person believes such a fairytale and that you could achieve any degree of communism or successful revolution without immense planning and structural changes that would need a lot of herculean work to implement…
all that we’d be changing is social relations which are entirely created by humans. they dont exist without the affirmation of humans
No, that’s not “all we’d be changing” because that alone is literally us changing all of human civilisation in every regard. That’s not “just” social relations… that so much we would be changing… that is literally everything there is.
but thats literally how every single proletarian revolution in history happened, i dont think thats how it works i can see thats how it works by just looking at history.
You’re really tryinf to tell me the russian revolution just happened without any planning, propaganda or prior organizing… it just happened one day… that’s not true…
do you think the russian proletariat was super progressive and class conscious in 1915
That’s one country, not the entire planet… and as far as I am aware they decriminalized homosexuality, allowed women to he educated, dismantled the monarchy, pushed back the churches influence due to supporting the monarchy, strengthened scientific literacy and education and wanted to make sure people had enough to eat and drink… so yeah I would say for the time thats pretty progressive and class conciousness…
this is what happened historically lmao. it turns out when your starving, being sent off to war, invaded, poor or destitute it kinda becomes clear that the economic system is bad for you.
Ah yes because historically people have not been convinced often enough that a different explanation is the reason for their suffering like idk “oh no, you’re starving because of the jews and immigrants and evil spirits beaming the land” or something of that sort…
I was using idealistic as an adjective… second I do know what idealism mean… it’s the position that our material conditions result from ideas, from convictions and ways of thinking about the world. A materialist would say that our ideas and beliefs come from material conditions.
I’m not saying stupid things… I’m engaging in a conversation and learning and sharing my thoughts. Also it wouldn’t be a happier face for capitalism, it would be easier to do a revolution in a society where you already have weakened the influence of capitalists by at least a little and forced some concessions
Why would that necessarily be class collaboration… can’t we just force some concessions on them and try to weaken them little by little while trying to prevent them from gaining more influence again
Yeah… come on… really? International lower stage communism could be achieved rapidly… and you call me idealistic? Come on, seriously
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Also dismantling relations of production isn’t gonna be that easy… you’re talking about a global structure with literally billions of parts… this machine can’t just be reassembled that easily especially when things such as “humans are inherently greedy” is an idea produced in almost everybody around the world that results from capitalist relations and would reproduce them instantly if we don’t accompany a reorganization of production with a reorganization of society wide pedagogy and culture as well…
You really think that this is so easy?
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Because breaking down everything and trying to built from scratch wouldn’t work because we can’t just stop global food trade… like… you say it’s all so easy but during that revolution you would need to garauntee that the world doesn’t literally go up in flames… like I really don’t understand how you imagine this mythical revolution will go… we do a revolution and then…? What then? Do you have a system in place to replace capitalism? How will things work? You just say it would be easy to stop affirming capitalist relations… ah yes because suddenly all 8 Billion people will understand Marxism perfectly and be all perfectly class conscious and not at all influenced by living under capitalism for generations… as if they wouldn’t immediately reproduce capitalist relations because it’s the only thing they know
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Yes but you can’t do that in a day or even a year or even 10 years… this would be a huge and frankly herculean endeavor that would require planning and changing things on a scale that has probably never been done before ever in the history of the world… and taking about it as if it’s that simple is silly… and if suddenly everybody would just say… nope no more capitalism, then we would again still need to solve that many problems and that wouldn’t just work without any planning before the revolution… the idea that we can just somehow change the way the entire world functions seems a lot more idealist to me than to acknowledge the material reality of the complexity of the modern world…
Okay… yeah… but that doesn’t answer questions such as how will you make sure everybody has enough to eat and drink after the revolution and that on an international level!!
You can’t just believe in a perfect post revolution world that will suddenly manifst out of thin air. That’s quite frankly abusrd, isn’t it???
That’s… I mean come on, you can’t believe that… then let’s just lay back and wait for capitalism to collapse and then sing kumbaya together… like of course we need to work towards class consciousness and cultivate it within people…
You can’t seriously believe that people when shit gets bad enough will just “wake up” and realize that capitalism is le bad and suddenly change the world by magically reorganising according to everybody’s needs and abilities…
That’s quite literally just magical thinking… That’s not how society works, it’s unrealistic.
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You really think planned economy is feasible on a national or even international level… besides… to list a few things… we did a revolution, nice… what do we do now hmm… idk… organizing shipping, supply chains, production, distribution, education, health care, housing, agriculture, administration, transportation, electricity, laws, social relations that remain after the revolution… you really think all that will just magically sort itself out somehow… seriously?
You’re saying that all this wouldn’t require planning… you think that when shit gets bad enough, suddenly 8 Billion people will all agree on one thing and suddenly will all look out for each other and somehow organize in a perfect communist way simultaneously and all simply spontaniously and that everybody on earth will be cared for… because le revolution fixed everything all of a sudden now…
Thats… I don’t believe any serious person believes such a fairytale and that you could achieve any degree of communism or successful revolution without immense planning and structural changes that would need a lot of herculean work to implement…
No, that’s not “all we’d be changing” because that alone is literally us changing all of human civilisation in every regard. That’s not “just” social relations… that so much we would be changing… that is literally everything there is.
You’re really tryinf to tell me the russian revolution just happened without any planning, propaganda or prior organizing… it just happened one day… that’s not true…
That’s one country, not the entire planet… and as far as I am aware they decriminalized homosexuality, allowed women to he educated, dismantled the monarchy, pushed back the churches influence due to supporting the monarchy, strengthened scientific literacy and education and wanted to make sure people had enough to eat and drink… so yeah I would say for the time thats pretty progressive and class conciousness…
Ah yes because historically people have not been convinced often enough that a different explanation is the reason for their suffering like idk “oh no, you’re starving because of the jews and immigrants and evil spirits beaming the land” or something of that sort…
That’s just a personal attack, come on…
I could also just say you’re fucking retarded but that would not contribute anything of value…
I was using idealistic as an adjective… second I do know what idealism mean… it’s the position that our material conditions result from ideas, from convictions and ways of thinking about the world. A materialist would say that our ideas and beliefs come from material conditions.
Don’t claim I don’t know stuff…
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I’m not saying stupid things… I’m engaging in a conversation and learning and sharing my thoughts. Also it wouldn’t be a happier face for capitalism, it would be easier to do a revolution in a society where you already have weakened the influence of capitalists by at least a little and forced some concessions
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Why would that necessarily be class collaboration… can’t we just force some concessions on them and try to weaken them little by little while trying to prevent them from gaining more influence again
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Fair point…