You really think planned economy is feasible on a national or even international level… besides… to list a few things… we did a revolution, nice… what do we do now hmm… idk… organizing shipping, supply chains, production, distribution, education, health care, housing, agriculture, administration, transportation, electricity, laws, social relations that remain after the revolution… you really think all that will just magically sort itself out somehow… seriously?
You’re saying that all this wouldn’t require planning… you think that when shit gets bad enough, suddenly 8 Billion people will all agree on one thing and suddenly will all look out for each other and somehow organize in a perfect communist way simultaneously and all simply spontaniously and that everybody on earth will be cared for… because le revolution fixed everything all of a sudden now…
Thats… I don’t believe any serious person believes such a fairytale and that you could achieve any degree of communism or successful revolution without immense planning and structural changes that would need a lot of herculean work to implement…
all that we’d be changing is social relations which are entirely created by humans. they dont exist without the affirmation of humans
No, that’s not “all we’d be changing” because that alone is literally us changing all of human civilisation in every regard. That’s not “just” social relations… that so much we would be changing… that is literally everything there is.
but thats literally how every single proletarian revolution in history happened, i dont think thats how it works i can see thats how it works by just looking at history.
You’re really tryinf to tell me the russian revolution just happened without any planning, propaganda or prior organizing… it just happened one day… that’s not true…
do you think the russian proletariat was super progressive and class conscious in 1915
That’s one country, not the entire planet… and as far as I am aware they decriminalized homosexuality, allowed women to he educated, dismantled the monarchy, pushed back the churches influence due to supporting the monarchy, strengthened scientific literacy and education and wanted to make sure people had enough to eat and drink… so yeah I would say for the time thats pretty progressive and class conciousness…
this is what happened historically lmao. it turns out when your starving, being sent off to war, invaded, poor or destitute it kinda becomes clear that the economic system is bad for you.
Ah yes because historically people have not been convinced often enough that a different explanation is the reason for their suffering like idk “oh no, you’re starving because of the jews and immigrants and evil spirits beaming the land” or something of that sort…
Nothing i said has anything to do with a planned economy
Okay so how does your idea of communism work… with what are we gonna replace capitalism and don’t quote Marx again… this is a pragmatic question… how will you make sure after the revolution that everybody’s needs are met and organize society… or do you seriously believe after the revolution a new world will just magically manifest where all the pragmatic things will be taken care of… how did the Russians do it… like seriously… you do understand that we need to think beyond the revolution… we need to plan for after the revolution… right.
If you dont believe me go read the history of the russian revolution by trotsky, the people who lead the bolsheviks at the time literally dont agree with you.
I seriously doubt that people weren’t sharing ideas and spreading communist thought before the revolution happened… the idea that it just manifested sounds to me pretty much like myht making… that just doesn’t sound logical…
And just because that’s how it happened with the Russians doesn’t mean that it can happen that say again… capitalism has evolved in the way it employs certain technologies to ensure its cancerous survival.
even most modern reactionary politicians is the petite bourgeoisie
Fair point… still think many workers though join in on reactionary politics… we can see that.
the implementation of labour vouchers, the organisation of production around need rather than market forces
Thank you for answering me… because you kinda made it seem like there isn’t a plan for afterwards… that it will all magically resolve itself… at least that’s the vibe you were kinda giving me… I’m sorry if I was annoying… and yes I can read a book… you could have literally said… marx talks about what to do pragmatically after the revolution instead of just saying over and over “we will reorganize production”…
I just kinda felt like it didn’t really sound like a pragmatic plan… that we’d need so much more… that we’d need to say especially in our modern world…
“okay so this is how we will have people organize politically, this is how well ensure that people don’t just abandon work after the revolution, this is how we will deal with managerial roles, this is what we’ll do with wealth assets, this is how we will ensure militarily that we will not be hindered in our revolution, this is how we will deal with civil unrest, this is what we’ll do with regards to food, this is how we will make sure to know what even the needs of the people are and how much we need where and when, this is what we will do here and there and now and then”
You really think planned economy is feasible on a national or even international level… besides… to list a few things… we did a revolution, nice… what do we do now hmm… idk… organizing shipping, supply chains, production, distribution, education, health care, housing, agriculture, administration, transportation, electricity, laws, social relations that remain after the revolution… you really think all that will just magically sort itself out somehow… seriously?
You’re saying that all this wouldn’t require planning… you think that when shit gets bad enough, suddenly 8 Billion people will all agree on one thing and suddenly will all look out for each other and somehow organize in a perfect communist way simultaneously and all simply spontaniously and that everybody on earth will be cared for… because le revolution fixed everything all of a sudden now…
Thats… I don’t believe any serious person believes such a fairytale and that you could achieve any degree of communism or successful revolution without immense planning and structural changes that would need a lot of herculean work to implement…
No, that’s not “all we’d be changing” because that alone is literally us changing all of human civilisation in every regard. That’s not “just” social relations… that so much we would be changing… that is literally everything there is.
You’re really tryinf to tell me the russian revolution just happened without any planning, propaganda or prior organizing… it just happened one day… that’s not true…
That’s one country, not the entire planet… and as far as I am aware they decriminalized homosexuality, allowed women to he educated, dismantled the monarchy, pushed back the churches influence due to supporting the monarchy, strengthened scientific literacy and education and wanted to make sure people had enough to eat and drink… so yeah I would say for the time thats pretty progressive and class conciousness…
Ah yes because historically people have not been convinced often enough that a different explanation is the reason for their suffering like idk “oh no, you’re starving because of the jews and immigrants and evil spirits beaming the land” or something of that sort…
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Okay so how does your idea of communism work… with what are we gonna replace capitalism and don’t quote Marx again… this is a pragmatic question… how will you make sure after the revolution that everybody’s needs are met and organize society… or do you seriously believe after the revolution a new world will just magically manifest where all the pragmatic things will be taken care of… how did the Russians do it… like seriously… you do understand that we need to think beyond the revolution… we need to plan for after the revolution… right.
I seriously doubt that people weren’t sharing ideas and spreading communist thought before the revolution happened… the idea that it just manifested sounds to me pretty much like myht making… that just doesn’t sound logical…
And just because that’s how it happened with the Russians doesn’t mean that it can happen that say again… capitalism has evolved in the way it employs certain technologies to ensure its cancerous survival.
Fair point… still think many workers though join in on reactionary politics… we can see that.
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Thank you for answering me… because you kinda made it seem like there isn’t a plan for afterwards… that it will all magically resolve itself… at least that’s the vibe you were kinda giving me… I’m sorry if I was annoying… and yes I can read a book… you could have literally said… marx talks about what to do pragmatically after the revolution instead of just saying over and over “we will reorganize production”…
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I just kinda felt like it didn’t really sound like a pragmatic plan… that we’d need so much more… that we’d need to say especially in our modern world…
“okay so this is how we will have people organize politically, this is how well ensure that people don’t just abandon work after the revolution, this is how we will deal with managerial roles, this is what we’ll do with wealth assets, this is how we will ensure militarily that we will not be hindered in our revolution, this is how we will deal with civil unrest, this is what we’ll do with regards to food, this is how we will make sure to know what even the needs of the people are and how much we need where and when, this is what we will do here and there and now and then”
Etc…