Maybe I’m just a selfish thirdie (who is disgusted by the wanton rape and consistent abuse of the western slaughter industry) but I don’t really plan to be vegan. I don’t really eat meat often, but I eat animal products I harvest myself or when I know the farmer personally and I know that they’re reputable. Meat is also acceptable as long as it’s humane. I’m an omnivore and a balanced diet is required for optimum mind and body.
I dislike the poorly formed arguments on both sides here. It’s childish and insane to hurl insults at one another. If you must make an argument of ethics and the proper way to live as per your personal philosophy, do so. Fallacious and lazy reasoning isn’t conductive of a convincing argument.
Well, I’ll assume you don’t mean the actual definition of murder here, and you mean to posit a moral argument. You highlight an animal’s sentience, right? If a being is conscious, can feel pain, and has a “will to live,” then ending that life for a non essential reason (like taste) is morally equivalent to murder.
I would disagree. There is a clear hierarchy or consciousness in this world. You distinguish between what you kill because it suits the moral compass and it is our nature.
There is no bloodless meal in this world. Our modern industrial culture is far from victimless. Do you cry for the millions of field animals? Rodents and ground nesting birds and rabbits and crows and snakes and all manners. Slaughtered by combine harvesters, tilling and planting.
Billions of insect deaths due to pesticides, which harm local water tables, killing fish and amphibians both.
If your goal was to minimize the lives lost, eating a cow would be the way to go.
Far less sentient deaths than the thousands of small animals killed to produce the same amount of nutrients.
I don’t really mean to be rude. But Kant already debunked personhood in this regard, as well.
The Moral Status of Animals
1.3 Personhood
Nonetheless, there is something important that is thought to distinguish humans from non-humans that is not reducible to the observation of behavior best explained by possessing a certain capacity, and that is our “personhood”. The notion of personhood identifies a category of morally considerable beings that is thought to be coextensive with humanity. Historically, Kant is the most noted defender of personhood as the quality that makes a being valuable and thus morally considerable (for a contemporary utilitarian discussion of personhood, see Varner 2012). Kant writes:
…every rational being, exists as an end in himself and not merely as a means to be arbitrarily used by this or that will…Beings whose existence depends not on our will but on nature have, nevertheless, if they are not rational beings, only a relative value as means and are therefore called things. On the other hand, rational beings are called persons inasmuch as their nature already marks them out as ends in themselves. (Kant [1785] 1998: [Ak 4: 428])
And:
The fact that the human being can have the representation “I” raises him infinitely above all the other beings on earth. By this he is a person….that is, a being altogether different in rank and dignity from things, such as irrational animals, with which one may deal and dispose at one’s discretion. (Kant [1798] 2010: 239 [Ak 7: 127])
I… I don’t really know how do respond to this.If you’re going to respond, please engage with the material and provide a rebuttal. These works are in part what my rejection of veganism are built upon, specifically kant’s ideas on the moral status of personhood. I understand your frustration, but insulting me for no reason isn’t very productive for either of us. I want to be convinced. Calling me male-brained without expounding just pushes me away. The age of content doesn’t matter unless it’s science. We still use Hume’s form, after all. The is-ought gap as well. Hell, the lier paradox is 500+ years old! These are ethical and moral questions and claims you make. Our philosophies were bound to clash.
do you think cows subsist off air? they need to eat plants, they’re inherently less efficient than just eating the plants grown, if you truly believe you minimize lives lost by killing cows you’re a child
Cows eating plants is insanely good for the environment. Approximately 60–70% of the world’s agricultural land is marginal or unarable. It’s too rocky, steep, or dry to grow crops like kale or soy. However, it can grow grass. Ruminants (like cows and sheep) can turn that otherwise useless grass into high-density protein. An effective way to fertilize without synthetic petroleum-based fertilizers. It would be a geographic impossibility to use that land for soy or kale anyway. Ruminants create value. Also, there is no reason to insult me. This discussion is good faith. (At least, I hope.) I genuinely want to learn and be convinced.
Maybe I’m just a selfish thirdie (who is disgusted by the wanton rape and consistent abuse of the western slaughter industry) but I don’t really plan to be vegan. I don’t really eat meat often, but I eat animal products I harvest myself or when I know the farmer personally and I know that they’re reputable. Meat is also acceptable as long as it’s humane. I’m an omnivore and a balanced diet is required for optimum mind and body.
I dislike the poorly formed arguments on both sides here. It’s childish and insane to hurl insults at one another. If you must make an argument of ethics and the proper way to live as per your personal philosophy, do so. Fallacious and lazy reasoning isn’t conductive of a convincing argument.
A. you don’t need to eat meat B. “humane” murder LOL
It’s not murder, and I am an omnivore.
I grew in part on a farm in a pastoral society. I don’t see the issue with my way of living.
how is taking the life of something that doesnt want to die not murder, and yeah omnivore doesnt mean needs to eat meat
Well, I’ll assume you don’t mean the actual definition of murder here, and you mean to posit a moral argument. You highlight an animal’s sentience, right? If a being is conscious, can feel pain, and has a “will to live,” then ending that life for a non essential reason (like taste) is morally equivalent to murder. I would disagree. There is a clear hierarchy or consciousness in this world. You distinguish between what you kill because it suits the moral compass and it is our nature. There is no bloodless meal in this world. Our modern industrial culture is far from victimless. Do you cry for the millions of field animals? Rodents and ground nesting birds and rabbits and crows and snakes and all manners. Slaughtered by combine harvesters, tilling and planting. Billions of insect deaths due to pesticides, which harm local water tables, killing fish and amphibians both. If your goal was to minimize the lives lost, eating a cow would be the way to go. Far less sentient deaths than the thousands of small animals killed to produce the same amount of nutrients.
I don’t really mean to be rude. But Kant already debunked personhood in this regard, as well. The Moral Status of Animals
This stuff is more convincing to those not philosophically versed, but it will take more legwork with me.
what is this malebrained debatebro shit, you’re citing someone who lived over 200 years ago as a moral beacon, am i having a stroke???
I… I don’t really know how do respond to this.If you’re going to respond, please engage with the material and provide a rebuttal. These works are in part what my rejection of veganism are built upon, specifically kant’s ideas on the moral status of personhood. I understand your frustration, but insulting me for no reason isn’t very productive for either of us. I want to be convinced. Calling me male-brained without expounding just pushes me away. The age of content doesn’t matter unless it’s science. We still use Hume’s form, after all. The is-ought gap as well. Hell, the lier paradox is 500+ years old! These are ethical and moral questions and claims you make. Our philosophies were bound to clash.
yeah no i dont think its worth my time or sanity trying to converse with someone like you, good day
do you think cows subsist off air? they need to eat plants, they’re inherently less efficient than just eating the plants grown, if you truly believe you minimize lives lost by killing cows you’re a child
Cows eating plants is insanely good for the environment. Approximately 60–70% of the world’s agricultural land is marginal or unarable. It’s too rocky, steep, or dry to grow crops like kale or soy. However, it can grow grass. Ruminants (like cows and sheep) can turn that otherwise useless grass into high-density protein. An effective way to fertilize without synthetic petroleum-based fertilizers. It would be a geographic impossibility to use that land for soy or kale anyway. Ruminants create value. Also, there is no reason to insult me. This discussion is good faith. (At least, I hope.) I genuinely want to learn and be convinced.
i have absolutely no reason to believe that someone like you is genuinely acting in good faith
Someone like me? I’ve never even talked to you before? What have I said that could possibly indicate bad faith?